British Film Noir - Dissertation help

[MrManley]

Evening! My names Antony Manley I'm a third year UK student finishing up a paper on a comparative view on the British and American Film noir. With the goal of which answering the question, "Does Brit Noir even exist?"



If anyone could answer any of the questions below and any other thoughts related to your views on British Film Noir, it would be an amazing contribution to my Disseration and you would all be acknowledged as primary sources.



Q: When you think of Brit Noir what films come to mind?



Q: Do you think the Brit Noir hero is the same as the American Noir hero?



Q: Do you think Brit Noir gave the impression that criminality was unbritish?



Q: Do you think femme fatales exist within Brit Film Noir? And if not why?



Q: In terms of Noir, do you think a British gangster can Measure up to his american counterparts?



Q: Do you think British characters are placed to merely hindrance the american hero? Are British characters type cast as the enemy?



Any information you guys can give would be greatly appreciated and you would be making me a VERY happy man.



Thanks for reading

Antony Manley

[batman]

Q: When you think of Brit Noir what films come to mind?



The Small Back Room, Marilyn, Daybreak, Night and the City plus several more.



Q: Do you think the Brit Noir hero is the same as the American Noir hero?



No really. As in the US he is often the doomed romantic or the persistent investigator, but Brit Noir steps outside this and he becomes a bomb disposal man or executioner.



Q: Do you think Brit Noir gave the impression that criminality was unbritish?



In Brit Noir criminals are usually less 'glamourous' than their US counterparts.



Q: Do you think femme fatales exist within Brit Film Noir? And if not why?



Yes. See Marilyn.



Q: In terms of Noir, do you think a British gangster can Measure up to his american counterparts?



In what way? Glamour, toughness, resources, ruthlessness? You need to be more specific.



Q: Do you think British characters are placed to merely hindrance the american hero? Are British characters type cast as the enemy?



I don't really understand the question. Are you referring to US actors in British? If so, no ... because British characters will predominate in British films. In Brit Noir films British characters will be both heroes and villains because it is they who populate the films.

[penfold]

Q1 As above, but also Contraband , perhaps Shop on Sly Corner, Waterloo Road



Q2 No, I think British Noirs are less....straitjacketed, less stereotyped, more varied than their US counterparts, and this applies to the elements within them too.



Q3 I wouldn't say Unbritish, as the criminals largely are British....unpatriotic, certainly !! Where they occur, they are either seen as draft-dodging, undermining the economy, or both....



Q4 Measure up how??? Tougher?? Probably not. More realistic?? Probably. More interesting?? Usually.



q5 Less visible certainly....and the female leads tend to be the sidekick of the hero, not the baddie.



Q6 Only in Hollywood....over here, the Brits got to play the heroes too.

[will.15]

This article will answer most of your questions.



BRITISH FILM NOIR: PART 1 | Films In Review

[Windthrop]

Q1 - Brighton Rock has elements

[penfold]

name='will.15']This article will answer most of your questions.



BRITISH FILM NOIR: PART 1 | Films In Review

Good essay, though the writer, who denies Noir having a tradition in Britain apart from Hitchcock, obviously hasn't seen Piccadilly, with Anna May Wong as the femme fatale...or the Anglo/German The Alleycat, or possibly The Three Kings, from the same director, both from the late 20's.



EDIT; the author is the highly esteemed William K. Everson, writing over twenty years ago; he would not have had the chance to see these relatively recently rediscovered films.....

[will.15]

Here is Britain's premier femme fatale from the post war. Although she is always described as a Norwegian actress, notice her British accent? She was raised there as a child.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOgglruRc2w"]YouTube- GRETA GYNT as a killer, psycho, heroine and femme fatale[/ame]

[Bernardo]

I have always thought that Film Noir is entirely American. We may have copied the style a la methode filme noir but by definition it is a US style. Call it Britnoir if you like.

[Steve Crook]

name='Bernardo']I have always thought that Film Noir is entirely American. We may have copied the style a la methode filme noir but by definition it is a US style. Call it Britnoir if you like.

That's why the OP called it "British Film Noir"



The amusing thing is that while the Americans were making their "Film Noir" films, they didn't know. The term wasn't coined until some time after they'd finished making them all



Steve

[will.15]

I don't think it is a U.S. style at all. It became popular in the United States in the 1940s at a time when the conventional detective story was being replaced by hard-boiled private eyes and non detective crime writers like James Cain and Cornell Woolrich became popular. There is scattered film noir from America, France, and Britain throughout the 1930s. And while some British films might have been imitating American film noir, Britain's premier source for film noir, Graham Greene, (whose novels were also adapted for American film noir) certainly wasn't. The peak years for film noir were the post war years and it came out of cynicism and disillusionment that manifested itself in both countries.

[Steve Crook]

name='will.15']I don't think it is a U.S. style at all. It became popular in the United States in the 1940s at a time when the conventional detective story was being replaced by hard-boiled private eyes and non detective crime writers like James Cain and Cornell Woolrich became popular. There is scattered film noir from America, France, and Britain throughout the 1930s. And while some British films might have been imitating American film noir, Britain's premier source for film noir, Graham Greene, (whose novels were also adapted for American film noir) certainly wasn't. The peak years for film noir were the post war years and it came out of cynicism and disillusionment that manifested itself in both countries.

The IMDb defines Film-Noir by saying that it:

should be shot in black and white, American, and set in contemporary times (relative to shooting date). We take the view that this genre began with Underworld (1927) and ended with Touch of Evil (1958). Note: neo-noir should be submitted as a keyword instead of this genre for titles that do not fit all criteria.



Now that's by no means definitive, but it is pretty close to the usually accepted definition of the genre.



British noir is often quite different in many ways. The private eye wasn't as common here so doesn't appear in many British films. Our Femmes don't tend to be as Fatale as the American ones so they are often there to help the leading man. But British noir keeps the B&W gritty feel and the German expressionist style that was also a major part of the American film noir.



Steve

[MrManley]

Oh wow thankyou so much for your input so far!



I notice a few of you think that the British Femme Fatale is more subdued and less visible than her american counterparts, do you think there is a reason for that?



Also to be more specific concerning my earlier question, can british gangsters be as tough as their american equivalents?Pinkie in Brighton Rock compared against Bart Tare from Gun Crazy. Or do you think they are portrayed in an entirely different light, for example Pinkie is a remorseless maniac, whereas Bart holds a conscience and 'farmboy' values about his crimes.



Any more input is GREATLY apprieciated.

[WhoFan]

I would guess you are aware of this website, but if not and for everyone else's benefit.



Film Noir Studies



One of the best site I've seen on Film Noir with some brilliant essays on the subject!



By the way, their definition of Film Noir credits the U.S. with it's popularity and evolution, but does not limited it to an American genre.

[dylan]

name='Steve Crook']That's why the OP called it "British Film Noir"



The amusing thing is that while the Americans were making their "Film Noir" films, they didn't know. The term wasn't coined until some time after they'd finished making them all



Steve

The term "film noir" was applied to certain French films in the 30s. Discussion here:



The Streets of Paris



Quote:



Five of the films are of the poetic realism movement (although as with anything else that could be debated): �The Lower Depths,� �P�p� le Moko,� Port of Shadows,� �La B�te Humaine� and �Le Jour se l�ve.� The other four films contain similar themes. In three of the films the protagonist commits suicide and suicide plays a role in two other films. In three of the films the protagonist is incarcerated or executed by the state. In one film the protagonist is killed senselessly. Three films have wives conspiring with lovers to kill husbands. In two films the protagonist survives with a lover although what follows that survival isn�t clear and in one film one lover is shot in a botched suicide pact. What also isn�t clear is whether there are more films called �noirs� that will show up with subsequent research and whether similar and earlier films made before the term �film noir� first hit ink are also film noirs.



D.

[billy bentley]

Mr Manley, perhaps the British femme fatale is more subdued than her American conterpart, is a reflection on both the culture and the economic climate of each country at the time the films were made. Most things American were flashier and bigger than their British equivalents cars, clothes, homes, so why not women ?

[batman]

name='MrManley']Oh wow thankyou so much for your input so far!



I notice a few of you think that the British Femme Fatale is more subdued and less visible than her american counterparts, do you think there is a reason for that?



Also to be more specific concerning my earlier question, can british gangsters be as tough as their american equivalents?Pinkie in Brighton Rock compared against Bart Tare from Gun Crazy. Or do you think they are portrayed in an entirely different light, for example Pinkie is a remorseless maniac, whereas Bart holds a conscience and 'farmboy' values about his crimes.



Any more input is GREATLY apprieciated.

I think tha there are equally tough people in both UK and US noirs .... the two you mention are equally tough, even though Bart, as you say, actually reflects on what he has done. In They Made Me A Fugitive Griffith Jones' character Narcy is as nasty as they come and could be The Maltese Falcon's Wilma a few years down the road (if he had survived of course).

[dylan]

name='billy bentley']Mr Manley, perhaps the British femme fatale is more subdued than her American conterpart, is a reflection on both the culture and the economic climate of each country at the time the films were made. Most things American were flashier and bigger than their British equivalents cars, clothes, homes, so why not women ?

A few Brit femme fatales:



Pink String And Sealing Wax (Robert Hamer, 1945) Googie Withers seduces shy pharmacist, Gordon Jackson, to obtain poison to kill her husband.



Bedelia (Lance Comfort, 1946) Socialite Margaret Lockwood poisons 3 spouses.



So Evil, My Love (Lewis Allen, 1948) Ann Todd, a missionary's widow, is

seduced by Ray Milland with whom she enters into a web of blackmail and

poisoning.



This Was A Woman (Tim Whelan, 1948) Matriarch Sonia Dresdel poisons her

husband to get a richer one.



Daughter Of Darkness (Lance Comfort, 1948) Siobhan McKenna is a nymphomaniac Irish girl persecuted by the village wifes who kills her lovers during the sexual act (phew - 1948!).



Madeleine (David Lean,1950) Ann Todd plots to preserve her respectability by

poisoning her French lover.



D.

[will.15]

name='MrManley']Oh wow thank you so much for your input so far!



I notice a few of you think that the British Femme Fatale is more subdued and less visible than her american counterparts, do you think there is a reason for that?



Also to be more specific concerning my earlier question, can british gangsters be as tough as their american equivalents?Pinkie in Brighton Rock compared against Bart Tare from Gun Crazy. Or do you think they are portrayed in an entirely different light, for example Pinkie is a remorseless maniac, whereas Bart holds a conscience and 'farmboy' values about his crimes.



Any more input is GREATLY apprieciated.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Your comparing a psychotic brutal British gangster with a nicer American one. The psycho in Gun Crazy is the one played by British actress (playing American) Peggy Cummins. A better comparison with Pinkie would be James Cagney in White Heat or Richard Widmark in Kiss of Death. Cagney is best known in his movie for sitting on his mother's lap while Widmark throws an invalid woman down a flight of stairs.



Femme fatales are less common in British noirs, but they are pretty nasty, too, when they show up. They may be more subdued because British movies in general tend to be more subtle and restrained compared to American ones. It is not true that the only strong women in American noirs are femme fatales. Ella Raines was the good girl heroine in American noirs. In both Phantom Lady and Impact she is working with the police to prove a man is innocent of murder.

[moonfleet]

name='dylan']The term "film noir" was applied to certain French films in the 30s. Discussion here:



The Streets of Paris



Quote:



Five of the films are of the poetic realism movement (although as with anything else that could be debated): “The Lower Depths,” “P�p� le Moko,” Port of Shadows,” “La B�te Humaine” and “Le Jour se l�ve.” The other four films contain similar themes. In three of the films the protagonist commits suicide and suicide plays a role in two other films. In three of the films the protagonist is incarcerated or executed by the state. In one film the protagonist is killed senselessly. Three films have wives conspiring with lovers to kill husbands. In two films the protagonist survives with a lover although what follows that survival isn’t clear and in one film one lover is shot in a botched suicide pact. What also isn’t clear is whether there are more films called “noirs” that will show up with subsequent research and whether similar and earlier films made before the term “film noir” first hit ink are also film noirs.



D.

Also coming to mind: Le Corbeau / Clouzot, Les Diaboliques / Clouzot and Panique / Duvivier....

[Joe Fraguela]

name='will.15']Here is Britain's premier femme fatale from the post war. Although she is always described as a Norwegian actress, notice her British accent? She was raised there as a child.

YouTube- GRETA GYNT as a killer, psycho, heroine and femme fatale

Greta Gynt was a femme fatale in the 1947 film Dear Murderer which is an extremely good british film noir film IMHO.