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  1. #21
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='kline']Only Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Bretons and the Basques have any thought of being descended from them.
    Plus the Cornish



    And the Basques are possibly related, but not really Celtic



    Steve

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Country: England
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    name='Steve Crook']Plus the Cornish



    And the Basques are possibly related, but not really Celtic



    Steve


    Don't forget the Manx, and in Spain, the Galicians. Not the Basque though - no-one knows where the Basque - and certainly not their language - originated. The Celts were spread from here across what was the Soviet Union to Mongolia.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Country: Scotland Biffer's Avatar
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    1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



    Well, my name's Andy, I'm Scottish (though currently languishing amongst the heathen English), I have a degree in archaeology and I'm a member of a forum called BritMovie - "Case proven, m'laud."



    2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



    The short answer is 'yes' - probably. To coin the phrase, 'it's the victors who write the history books' As Mr.Penfold suggested, the Romans were experts at glorifying their own culture and achievements, whilst denegrating those of their enemies. The fact that the Celtic tribes had an oral tradition inevitably meant that they would lose the 'propaganda' war, if not altogether the physical one. Those that the Romans couldn't subdue or irradicate, they demonised. Thus, largely thanks to Rome, history has bequeathed us this stereotypical image of blood-thirsty Celtic savages. I have no doubt the Celts were blood-thirsty (when annoyed) - as were most of the tribal societies in the known world at that time, because that's how you survived.



    But the Celts were demonstrably more than just 'savages' - something the Romans convieniently forgot to put in their 'histories'. I would cite as examples the many items of fine Celtic art and jewellery that have been found from that period. These are not the product of a society just one meal away from the beasts in the forest, as the Romans would have you believe. And let us not forget that the Romans were adept at their own brand of savagery, on an industrial scale, as well as truly stomach-churning acts of cruelty - ethnic cleansing, anyone?




    3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



    I refer the right-honourable gentleman to my previous answer.



    4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



    I suppose I'm honour bound to mention 'Braveheart', aren't I? Leaving aside the Hollyweird inaccuracies (the use of wode had died out long before that period, whilst kilts, if they existed in that form at all at that time, were a peculiarly highland form of dress. Wallace, and most of his men, were lowlanders, and dressed in similar fashion to the English), the thing they got 'just right' was an indefinable sense of Celtic-ness (is that a word?).



    For reasons explained above, the Celts as a race are often perceived as the underdogs. Someone else mentioned Cowboys & Indians, but you could just as easily substitute Vietnamese & Americans (guess who the Celts would be?). That's a strange analogy in some ways, because although largely seen as 'opressed', I feel that Celts share a very American sentimentality. That's why I think this 'American' film touched the Celt in me as no other film has done. The sentiment was nicely handled - not overly sugar-coated as in most Hollywood tales - whilst the basic theme of an opressed people striving against monstrous injustice largely reflected Celtic history, as far as it's known.



    There are many more films I could mention, although I think I would regard these as reflecting a distinctive 'Scottishness', as opposed to a wider 'Celtic' purview. I'm thinking of 'Whiskey Galore'; 'Restless Natives'; 'Gregory's Girl'; 'The Maggie'; 'Brigadoon'; 'Trainspotting' (McGregor's speech about how crap it is to be Scottish in that film is so accurate - in a way - and so much funnier being said by a Scotsman and a Celt). I think any good Welshman or Irishman could think of a similar list to reflect their experience of Celtic-ness.




    5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



    Yes, of course, but then this genre draws on the world-wide back-catalogue of myth and folklore for its basic plots - not just Celtic ones.



    6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



    Oh, absolutely ... gizz a job!



    But seriously, there's only so many times you can watch wild looking blokes painted blue, knocking seven bells out of the Romans before it gets a bit 'samey'. "Oh look, here comes the scene where the Roman gets run over by theh chariot and the big guy in the red beard lops the Centurion's head off."



    Having said that, I'm looking forward to the new Neil Marshall film, 'Centurion'. Loosely based around the legend of the Roman 9th Legion that marched north to take on those 'savage' Celts - and never came back - I'm reliably informed that this provided much needed work for many unemployed ancient Celts. Or should I have said, 'Picts'? Now don't get me started on that one .....




    7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?



    God knows. If by 'influence' you mean, are there many people of Celtic origin doing good work in the film industry - yes, of course. I don't thing anyone's trying to promote a specifically 'Celtic' film culture (that sounds too much like propaganda to me) but there's a lot of creative people out there who can claim Celtic origins. You could make a sizeable list of actors alone - Sean Connory; Ewan McGregor; Gerard Butler; Liam Neeson; Pierce Brosnan; Gabriel Byrne; Kenneth Branagh; Rhys Ifans; Ioan Gruffudd; Rob Brydon ... well, OK, not Rob Brydon ... I could go on, but it's well past my bed-time.



    Good luck with the dissertation!

  4. #24
    Senior Member moonfleet's Avatar
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    The power of dreams....








  5. #25
    Senior Member Country: UK Moor Larkin's Avatar
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    name='Biffer'] I suppose I'm honour bound to mention 'Braveheart', aren't I? Leaving aside the Hollyweird inaccuracies (the use of wode had died out long before that period, whilst kilts, if they existed in that form at all at that time, were a peculiarly highland form of dress. Wallace, and most of his men, were lowlanders, and dressed in similar fashion to the English), the thing they got 'just right' was an indefinable sense of Celtic-ness (is that a word?).



    For reasons explained above, the Celts as a race are often perceived as the underdogs. Someone else mentioned Cowboys & Indians, but you could just as easily substitute Vietnamese & Americans (guess who the Celts would be?). That's a strange analogy in some ways, because although largely seen as 'opressed', I feel that Celts share a very American sentimentality. That's why I think this 'American' film touched the Celt in me as no other film has done. The sentiment was nicely handled - not overly sugar-coated as in most Hollywood tales - whilst the basic theme of an opressed people striving against monstrous injustice largely reflected Celtic history, as far as it's known.
    Braveheart is the subject of some debate on this forum from time to time....



    It's interesting to me to see a response that mirrors how that film seemed to be reacted to at the time as a defining *Scottish* moment.

    Alex Salmond: �That film had a profound effect. Things politically were already on the move, but it certainly accelerated change. There aren�t many films which are truly important, but this is one.�

    Braveheart battle cry is now but a whisper - Times Online



    I'm not quite sure if anyone will see my point, but................



    I didn't actually see the film until years later, when it came on TV and whilst the obvious tyranny of an English king was delightfully played by Patrick McGoohan, the one thing that baffled me later was why the English media saw it as anti-English when it was plainly anti-Scottish...... The English king was certainly a baddun, but that is the job of Conquering and he seemed a fairly routine movie villain to me.



    The thing that struck me the most was that the entire (pretty much) Scottish aristocracy were portrayed as venal scumbags, and Robert the Bruce as a traitorous turncoat....... And yet the it was the English getting blue in the face over this slur on the Celtic Heritage.........



    It just struck me, in the context of this Thread that maybe this is how legends are made...... people remember the bits they like and blank out the rest...




  6. #26
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='moonfleet']The power of dreams....









    The worst sort of "tartanry".



    At least they acknowledge that it's a myth when they're in the village itself. It's the "real life" parts of the film that are more painful



    Steve

  7. #27
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='Moor Larkin']The thing that struck me the most was that the entire (pretty much) Scottish aristocracy were portrayed as venal scumbags, and Robert the Bruce as a traitorous turncoat....... And yet the it was the English getting blue in the face over this slur on the Celtic Heritage.........


    But they were in real life. That was probably the most accurate part of the film



    Remember that at most battles in Scotland, like at Bannockburn and Culloden, there were usually more Scots fighting on the "English" side than there were on the "Scottish" side and that the "Scottish" side was often boosted by foreign troops from Ireland and France.



    Describing any of these battles as the Scots against the English is usually a huge over-simplification. They were more often the lowland Scots against the highland Scots, or just one clan against another.



    The Scots still blame the English for "The Clearances" but really most of the clearances were done by the Scottish clan chiefs



    Steve

  8. #28
    Senior Member Country: United States will.15's Avatar
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    By the way, a lot of people think Brigadoon is an actual myth and some souces on the web say it's a legend from another country. But Alan Jay Lerner in his memoirs, On the Street Where I Live, says he made the entire thing up.

  9. #29
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='will.15']By the way, a lot of people think Brigadoon is an actual myth and some souces on the web say it's a legend from another country. But Alan Jay Lerner in his memoirs, On the Street Where I Live, says he made the entire thing up.
    Errm, isn't that the definition of a myth? That someone made it up



    Steve

  10. #30
    Senior Member Country: England Maurice's Avatar
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    Daphne du Maurier, 'Vanishing Cornwall':



    Arthur is to Cornwall what Theseus is to Greece. His myth is everywhere. Here is where Arthur sat or Arthur slept, he feasted upon this stone, he hunted upon these moors; Tintagle was his birth-place, Castle-an-Dinas his hunting lodge, at Slaughter Bridge by Camelford he received his fatal wound, in the Warbstow Burrows lies his grave.



    Not in Cornwall only but in Somerset and Wales, and across the Channel to Brittany, Arthur is hero; a Celtic warrior, a Breton prince, a Cornish king.



    The bards sang his praises, the story-tellers told of his valorous deeds, his battles, his conquests, and the people in after years, when paying tribute to the Saxon kings of England, whispered among themselves how Arthur would come again and set them free.



    Later, the chroniclers of mediaeval times wrote how Arthur introduced the Age of Chivalry, of tilting, jousting, of rescuing maidens beset by magician's wand or marauder's sword, of the search for the Holy Grail; and so the legend of the Round Table was born.



    Myths have their origins in minds seeking consolation, an answer to the conflict between good and evil, but the legend interwoven with the myth, however primitive, is based on an historical fact.



    There WAS an Arthur, a Christian warrior, perhaps a Cornish chief, who lived at the end of the fifth century A.D. and fought the Saxon kings. The rest is supposition.....



    Those of us who were brought up on Tennyson's IDYLLS OF THE KING and Malory's MORTE D'ARTHUR have to put aside memories of the turreted castles and armoured knights which illustrated our childish versions. The hill-castles of the first centuries A.D. were defensive circular earthworks, sometimes three trenches deep, and within these ramparts were wooden huts where the occupants ate and slept.



    The finest hill-castle in all Cornwall is Castle-an-Dinas, above St. Columb.....



    Another place-name that figures largely in Arthurian legend was the place of Carlyon, where the King held court with Gwinevere. Carlyon - Caerlydan in A.D. 969 - is a smaller earthwork or round south of the river Fal, and particularly interesting for the fact that about a mile-and-a half distant is Nansavallan or Avallen, Cornish for apple-tree.....

  11. #31
    Senior Member Country: UK Moor Larkin's Avatar
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    name='Steve Crook']The Scots still blame the English for "The Clearances" but really most of the clearances were done by the Scottish clan chiefs
    Yes, but this is the same tragedy as began to dawn on me when I first read Cecil Woodham-Smith's 'The Great Hunger'. The people clearing the bankrupt Famine victims off their small-holdings were their Irish landlords.



    The *tragedy* seemed to be that the British Westminster government had no bureaucratic comprehension of how Ireland worked at the time and just sat in London, worrying that to offer Famine Relief would encourage shiftlessness and welfare dependency.



    As I understood it however, whilst the Irish could at least claim their tenants had not paid their rent and therefore their tenancy was forfeit, the Scottish landlords just decided that sheep would make them more money than humans, and actively terminated or refused to renew the tenancies for the crofters etc.



    What seems reflected in both cases is how out of touch centralised governments can become. I have far more enthusiasm for devolution on a local government basis than I have for it on any national heritage platform, but as a bog-standard Englishman - what happens to the United Kingdom is apparently none of my concern...




  12. #32
    Senior Member Country: UK CaptainWaggett's Avatar
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    name='Moor Larkin']As I understood it however, whilst the Irish could at least claim their tenants had not paid their rent and therefore their tenancy was forfeit, the Scottish landlords just decided that sheep would make them more money than humans, and actively terminated or refused to renew the tenancies for the crofters etc.




    Worse than that. In some cases (this happened on Barra for example), recalcitrant Scottish tenants (some of whom only spoke Gaelic) were quite literally kidnapped and put on a boat for Canada.

  13. #33
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='CaptainWaggett']Worse than that. In some cases (this happened on Barra for example), recalcitrant Scottish tenants (some of whom only spoke Gaelic) were quite literally kidnapped and put on a boat for Canada.
    There were quite a few on the mainland in the highlands as well where they were forcibly driven out of the villages where they had lived for generations.



    My point was that this was usually done by the Scottish clan chiefs. Even if some of them did talk posh and affect English accents, they were still most definitely Scottish - but modern day Scots seem to exclusively blame the English and don't acknowledge any guilt themselves



    BTW I'm fairly neutral in this one as I'm not (very) English and I'm not at all Scottish. I just think it sad that some people don't realise about their own history - and then blame someone else for it.



    Steve

  14. #34
    Senior Member Country: Scotland Biffer's Avatar
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    name='Steve Crook']Remember that at most battles in Scotland, like at Bannockburn and Culloden, there were usually more Scots fighting on the "English" side than there were on the "Scottish" side and that the "Scottish" side was often boosted by foreign troops from Ireland and France.






    name='Steve Crook']Describing any of these battles as the Scots against the English is usually a huge over-simplification. They were more often the lowland Scots against the highland Scots, or just one clan against another.






    name='Steve Crook']The Scots still blame the English for "The Clearances" but really most of the clearances were done by the Scottish clan chiefs








    Oh, Steve, stop it! Please! My sides are aching. I can't take any more. I think you're a comic genius mate, I really do. It just amazes me the way you can jump into anyone else's topic on here and with little or no prior knowledge of the subject come up with these hilarious comedy posts of yours. You should have your own TV show. Please do let me know where you're appearing next so's I can send tickets to all my Highland mates. I'm sure they'd love your material as much as I do. More! More!



    Biffer

  15. #35
    Senior Member Country: Scotland Biffer's Avatar
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    name='Moor Larkin']The thing that struck me the most was that the entire (pretty much) Scottish aristocracy were portrayed as venal scumbags, and Robert the Bruce as a traitorous turncoat....... And yet the it was the English getting blue in the face over this slur on the Celtic Heritage.........





    I'd have to agree with you, Moor - to a degree. It's a matter of historical record that much (but by no means all) of the Scots nobility were indeed little more than self-serving opportunists who would lie, cheat, murder and change their allegience at short notice if it served their own personal advancement. But to that extent, could not the same be said of the English nobility, and indeed, that of just about every nation in the Mediaeval world?



    Mediaeval royalty controlled their nations in much the same fashion as modern Mafia Dons control their territories, and just like Mafia gangs, there were many factions (families) within their ranks, all vying for power and riven through with petty jealousies. We have to look at historical characters in the context of their times and not impose our modern notions of decency and statehood.



    The likes of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce have been demonised by the English, and not without some justification. But these were hard, embittered men, living in harsh and turbulent times. Where Wallace differed was in his wider vision for the future, much different to the milieu of short-term personal-gain that Bruce, for example, was raised in. Far from the simple farmer, as portrayed in 'Braveheart', Wallace was an educated nobleman, albeit from a lowly caste. It speaks volumes for his powers of oration and sheer leadership that he persuaded the higher Scots nobility to take up arms against the English at all. Indeed, many of them stood little to gain (personally), and much to lose, by doing so. What undoubtedly carried the day was the ability of Wallace to inspire the rank-and-file peasantry (who would make up the bulk of any Scottish Army) with his concept of a Scottish 'nation' - a land where all men were born free (if not altogether equal). Since even the most self-interested of the nobles didn't care for a peasants' revolt, they effectively 'went with the flow', at least as long as it suited their purpose. It seems that nothing much has changed in politics, worldwide, since then.



    If one takes a purely Marxist-Lenninsist view of history (which I don't, but it makes an interesting point here), it could be said that the Scottish Wars of Independence were as much about 'class' as 'politics'. When Scots peasants un-horsed and skewered the cream of English knighthood at Stirling Bridge, and later at Bannockburn, some would argue they were striking a blow, not just for national freedom, but for freedom of their 'class' from the opression of their own nobility. Taken in that context, it could be said that these lowly soldiers had more in common with their English opposite numbers than they did with their own leaders.



    But getting back purely to 'Braveheart'. Despite it's glaring innacuracies, like Bruce fighting for the English at Falkirk and Wallace fathering a child by the English queen, it was the bits they managed to get right that made that film special for all Scots (well, for this one, anyway). Wallace did indeed initiate and lead a guerrilla campaign against the English (although there were other leaders, notably Andrew De Mornay in the north-east); the battle of Stirling Bridge really was the first time that English heavy-cavalry (the Armoured Corps of its day) was defeated by a largely peasant-infantry force; and, by words and deeds, Wallace really did inspire Bruce to carry on the fight in the name of an independent Scotland, rather than pure self-gain.



    For these reasons, and to answer more fully Ben's original post (if not Moor's ), this is why I feel 'Braveheart' to be a 'Celtic' film, at heart (pun intentional). At the end of the day (or the film), when all's said and done - (insert the cliche of your choice) - I guess you just need to be Scottish to appreciate it.



    Biffer

  16. #36
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='Biffer']Oh, Steve, stop it! Please! My sides are aching. I can't take any more. I think you're a comic genius mate, I really do. It just amazes me the way you can jump into anyone else's topic on here and with little or no prior knowledge of the subject come up with these hilarious comedy posts of yours. You should have your own TV show. Please do let me know where you're appearing next so's I can send tickets to all my Highland mates. I'm sure they'd love your material as much as I do. More! More!



    Biffer


    I'm glad you find them funny. But you don't deny the truth of it



    Steve

  17. #37
    Senior Member Country: Scotland Biffer's Avatar
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    name='Steve Crook']I'm glad you find them funny. But you don't deny the truth of it



    Steve




    Steve, mate ... gotta say it ... I think you've lost your touch. Just caught your last gig and, well, I'm sorry, but the magic just wasn't there. In truth, there was narry a trace of wit nor irony in the whole set.



    Maybe your agent should find you a new gag writer? Aw, but don't let one bad performance put you off - you're too good. Look at it this way. It's like punk music. Not everyone 'got it' the first time they heard it. So .... not everyone's going to pick up on your revisionist-history stuff first time either. Keep at it, boy-bach.



    Listen. Here's one you can use in your act. I don't mind you stealing it. Tell 'em the one about the Welsh archers that fought for the English at Bannockburn. That one's a hoot!



    Keep yer chin up, Stevie-boy. I know you'll make it big, one day. Mark my words.



    Your No.1 fan,



    Biffer

  18. #38
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='Biffer']Steve, mate ... gotta say it ... I think you've lost your touch. Just caught your last gig and, well, I'm sorry, but the magic just wasn't there. In truth, there was narry a trace of wit nor irony in the whole set.



    Maybe your agent should find you a new gag writer? Aw, but don't let one bad performance put you off - you're too good. Look at it this way. It's like punk music. Not everyone 'got it' the first time they heard it. So .... not everyone's going to pick up on your revisionist-history stuff first time either. Keep at it, boy-bach.



    Listen. Here's one you can use in your act. I don't mind you stealing it. Tell 'em the one about the Welsh archers that fought for the English at Bannockburn. That one's a hoot!



    Keep yer chin up, Stevie-boy. I know you'll make it big, one day. Mark my words.



    Your No.1 fan,



    Biffer
    I see lots of attempts at humour in what you write, and lots of misdirection trying to change the subject. But no attempts to deny the truth of what I said. However hard it may be for the Scottish Nationalists to swallow it doesn't stop being the truth



    Steve

  19. #39
    Senior Member Country: Scotland Biffer's Avatar
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    name='Steve Crook']I see lots of attempts at humour in what you write, and lots of misdirection trying to change the subject. But no attempts to deny the truth of what I said. However hard it may be for the Scottish Nationalists to swallow it doesn't stop being the truth



    Steve




    Hmmm ... not bad, Steve-o ... better than your last routine. I particularly like the hint of sarcasm right at the start. That's good. Middle's a bit weak, though, but at least you ended on a high. Nothing like a bit of political extremism to get the audience all fired up.



    Well, gotta go. It's Saturday night. Time to strap on the kilt, paint myself blue and go out for a spot of English-bashing. Might even set fire to a holiday-home later, if I can still afford the petrol (thanks for that tip, by the way ... the Molotovs do work better if you through a little gelatin into the mix!). Cheers for that, boyo.



    Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour. Speak to you later.



    Biffer

  20. #40
    Senior Member Country: UK Moor Larkin's Avatar
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    name='Biffer']If one takes a purely Marxist-Lenninsist view of history ....... some would argue they were striking a blow......... for freedom of their 'class' from the opression of their own nobility. Taken in that context, it could be said that these lowly soldiers had more in common with their English opposite numbers than they did with their own leaders.
    That was certainly my *take* on the movie when I saw it......



    Mel did play the *Scottish card* by wearing a kilt at the Edinburgh premiere I think, but that's showbiz I guess. I do think that for Mel it was all about *Class* and in interviews he blatantly said he didn't give that much of a fig for historical *accuracy*. I think he was also more interested with the individual against the general Establishment, whatever that might mean. It probably also explains why so many people don't seem to like him........



    There cannot be many film-makers who have done more for ancient languages since though - I wonder if Braveheart would have been quite such a hit movie if everyone had been quothing in Gaelic.........



    Maybe he'll do a Welsh one for Steve one day...........



    Gheibh righ feachd, 's gheibh domhan daoine.




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