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  1. #1
    Senior Member Country: England billy farmer's Avatar
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    I am looking for the following title on DVD.
    Hanratty: The Whole Truth - Documentary shown on C4 on May 2nd 2002.
    Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Member Country: Great Britain Lustgarten's Avatar
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    Hi Billy
    I think I can help. Please PM me.

    Lustgarten

  3. #3
    Senior Member Country: England
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      Spoiler:
    He did do It
    Last edited by batman; 26-02-11 at 12:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Country: Scotland narabdela's Avatar
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      Spoiler:
    He did do It
    I doubt it.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Country: England billy farmer's Avatar
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    Here is the link to a very interesting Thread about James Hanratty and the A6 Murder on the Jack The Ripper Casebook Website - a6 murder - Casebook Forums

  6. #6
    Senior Member Country: England
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    Quote Originally Posted by narabdela View Post
    I doubt it.
    Of course he did unless you agree that between his arrest and trial some of his sperm accidentally got in contact with the underware of Valerie Storie. He was a smalltime crook who became a big man with a gun. He robbed, raped, murdered and then lied to the end. On top of the A6 victims he also distroyed the lives of his own law abiding mother and father.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    I remember watching the documentary, it was fascinating and actually quite distressing to see an interview with the lady he shot and raped. She survived, she had been confined to a wheelchair ever since, her lover had been murdered by Hanratty. What is disturbing is how she positively identified Hanratty at the time, gave a correct description of him, was adamant without a doubt that it was him, yet she herself was persecuted and her eye witness account dismissed by the press and some notable public figures who were intent on proving Hanratty was innocent. She always maintained the right man was hanged for raping and shooting her, even before he was exhumed and DNA from stored evidence was proved to be a direct match with his, as Toscana says, DNA from the victim's underwear was a direct match with Hanratty, the consensus is that he was indeed guilty, the DNA proves it beyond doubt and the victim has never been in any doubt. I think a woman would never forget the face of a man who raped and tried to murder her, such a shame she was made to suffer for so long by so many misinformed and deluded people who were championing Hanratty as if he were the victim. He was a vicious murdering rapist and justice was served.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Country: England jaycad's Avatar
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    wasn't john lennon one of the misinformed people who campaigned in favour of hanrattys innocence? typical lennon!

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaycad View Post
    wasn't john lennon one of the misinformed people who campaigned in favour of hanrattys innocence? typical lennon!
    It was a snowballing bandwagon with all sorts of people piping up on Hanratty's behalf. Many were quoting completely inaccurate/ incorrect press reports of the circumstances and evidence from the crime scene. Remember, one of Hanratty's victims survived, you would think her account should have been placed ahead of everything, but it wasn't, because this was the 1960s and she was a woman who was having a clandestine meeting with her lover in a parked up car, therefore her opinion and first hand account of events was irrelevant as far as the press and public were concerned.
    Last edited by christoph404; 26-02-11 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Country: England markrgv's Avatar
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    It seems to be one of those strange cases where an unlikeable small time crook goes too far, gets caught, is banged to rights, can't supply any proper alibi's for where he was at the time - though at one point didn't he claim to be on holiday in Blackpool, but couldn't remember where he had stayed!! But then started getting loads of public support, which becomes celebrity support; and the poor victim - as is often the case now - is completely discredited.

    And of course ever since, the case has been a breeding ground for all the loony conspiracy theories!

  11. #11
    Senior Member Country: England
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    He claimed at the time of the murder to have been staying in a guest house in Rhyl (also in Liverpool at the same time) and discribed a green bath as proof. The owner said he may have stayed there (he must have at sometime) but could not be exact on when. He was arrested in Blackpool

  12. #12
    Senior Member Country: England Santonix's Avatar
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    There is no doubt he did it. The evidence against him is conclusive.

  13. #13
    Member Country: Great Britain Lustgarten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christoph404 View Post
    I remember watching the documentary, it was fascinating and actually quite distressing to see an interview with the lady he shot and raped. She survived, she had been confined to a wheelchair ever since, her lover had been murdered by Hanratty. What is disturbing is how she positively identified Hanratty at the time, gave a correct description of him, was adamant without a doubt that it was him, yet she herself was persecuted and her eye witness account dismissed by the press and some notable public figures who were intent on proving Hanratty was innocent. She always maintained the right man was hanged for raping and shooting her, even before he was exhumed and DNA from stored evidence was proved to be a direct match with his, as Toscana says, DNA from the victim's underwear was a direct match with Hanratty, the consensus is that he was indeed guilty, the DNA proves it beyond doubt and the victim has never been in any doubt. I think a woman would never forget the face of a man who raped and tried to murder her, such a shame she was made to suffer for so long by so many misinformed and deluded people who were championing Hanratty as if he were the victim. He was a vicious murdering rapist and justice was served.
    I am afraid I shall have to take up cudgels with you there, Christoph. Valerie Storie, far from positively identifying Hanratty and being "adamant without a doubt", in fact identified a completely innocent man at the first ID line-up on 24th September. So much for her cast-iron memory. "She always maintained the right man was hanged" well, she would, wouldn't she? Nearly fifty years of sleepless nights would be the alternative, would they not?

    As for her "never forgetting the face of the man who raped her" - well she never got a clear look at her attacker, did she? The most fleeting moment in the headlights of a passing car were all she saw of him. Very shortly after the attack she blurted out "My memory of this man's face is fading". She described Deadman's Hill as being "dark, completely and utterly dark" and went on to say that "I only had a glimpse of him. In any case I'd got my glasses off. They were in my right hand coat pocket. I can't see very clearly without them". Her description of the man changed from his having brown eyes (in her first statement) to staring, icy blue ones in her later recollection. To say her credentials as a credible eyewitness are suspect, puts matters lightly.

    The ID parade in which Hanratty was picked out was fatally compromised. Press reports had stated police were searching for a man with dyed hair (a novelty in the 1960s). Hanratty was the only man in the parade with vividly coloured hair standing out "like a carrot in a bunch of bananas", as was stated at the time. It later appeared Supt. Acott had realised how this was likely to look to a jury and had actually requested "skull caps be obtained" for the parade members - a request which was never followed-through.

    In the TV interview with her on the documentary, it was most instructive to hear Storie (a) dismiss the incorrect identification she made, rather blithely, as "one of those things" (had the man hanged for it, she presumably would have shrugged that off just as nonchalantly); and (b) not to be scrutinized by the interviewer as to why Hanratty - an accomplished small time car thief - were he guilty, would have driven the Morris Minor away lurchingly, gears crunching, having thought he had already shot dead both of the car's occupants. Why would Hanratty, who was used to driving all makes of car since his early teens, put on a pretence of being unable to drive if he was sure he had killed both Storie and Gregsten, as their attacker clearly had? This simply does not make any sense whatsoever (the man who later dumped the car was also reported to be driving in a highly inexperienced and erratic fashion). The fact that Valerie Storie was not quizzed on these points, nor on her altering descriptions of the man, was a missed opportunity and, as such, highly illuminating given the general tenor of the programme.

    The only 'evidence' really linking Hanratty is the DNA and considering the huge time span and the total failure of the authorities to give a detailed account of what happened to the fragments (handkerchief and knickers) it is highly irresponsible to state that there was no chance of contamination. In those pre-DNA days they were kept in the same box!

  14. #14
    Senior Member Country: UK RogerThornhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lustgarten View Post
    I am afraid I shall have to take up cudgels with you there, Christoph. Valerie Storie, far from positively identifying Hanratty and being "adamant without a doubt", in fact identified a completely innocent man at the first ID line-up on 24th September. So much for her cast-iron memory. "She always maintained the right man was hanged" well, she would, wouldn't she? Nearly fifty years of sleepless nights would be the alternative, would they not?

    As for her "never forgetting the face of the man who raped her" - well she never got a clear look at her attacker, did she? The most fleeting moment in the headlights of a passing car were all she saw of him. Very shortly after the attack she blurted out "My memory of this man's face is fading". She described Deadman's Hill as being "dark, completely and utterly dark" and went on to say that "I only had a glimpse of him. In any case I'd got my glasses off. They were in my right hand coat pocket. I can't see very clearly without them". Her description of the man changed from his having brown eyes (in her first statement) to staring, icy blue ones in her later recollection. To say her credentials as a credible eyewitness are suspect, puts matters lightly.

    The ID parade in which Hanratty was picked out was fatally compromised. Press reports had stated police were searching for a man with dyed hair (a novelty in the 1960s). Hanratty was the only man in the parade with vividly coloured hair standing out "like a carrot in a bunch of bananas", as was stated at the time. It later appeared Supt. Acott had realised how this was likely to look to a jury and had actually requested "skull caps be obtained" for the parade members - a request which was never followed-through.

    In the TV interview with her on the documentary, it was most instructive to hear Storie (a) dismiss the incorrect identification she made, rather blithely, as "one of those things" (had the man hanged for it, she presumably would have shrugged that off just as nonchalantly); and (b) not to be scrutinized by the interviewer as to why Hanratty - an accomplished small time car thief - were he guilty, would have driven the Morris Minor away lurchingly, gears crunching, having thought he had already shot dead both of the car's occupants. Why would Hanratty, who was used to driving all makes of car since his early teens, put on a pretence of being unable to drive if he was sure he had killed both Storie and Gregsten, as their attacker clearly had? This simply does not make any sense whatsoever (the man who later dumped the car was also reported to be driving in a highly inexperienced and erratic fashion). The fact that Valerie Storie was not quizzed on these points, nor on her altering descriptions of the man, was a missed opportunity and, as such, highly illuminating given the general tenor of the programme.

    The only 'evidence' really linking Hanratty is the DNA and considering the huge time span and the total failure of the authorities to give a detailed account of what happened to the fragments (handkerchief and knickers) it is highly irresponsible to state that there was no chance of contamination. In those pre-DNA days they were kept in the same box!
    Yes these are all very good points, I read about quite a few of these inaccuracies in a book by Paul Foot. For many years I thought that Hanratty was innocent but after I had read some books on the case I felt that the police had a good case against him. Having said that there were so many doubts surrounding the case that Hanratty's conviction seems at the very least unsafe and because of that I don't believe that he should have been executed. Valerie Storie endured a dreadful ordeal and must have suffered greatly because of it but she was much less than a reliable witness.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Country: Afghanistan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lustgarten View Post
    I am afraid I shall have to take up cudgels with you there, Christoph. Valerie Storie, far from positively identifying Hanratty and being "adamant without a doubt", in fact identified a completely innocent man at the first ID line-up on 24th September. So much for her cast-iron memory. "She always maintained the right man was hanged" well, she would, wouldn't she? Nearly fifty years of sleepless nights would be the alternative, would they not?

    As for her "never forgetting the face of the man who raped her" - well she never got a clear look at her attacker, did she? The most fleeting moment in the headlights of a passing car were all she saw of him. Very shortly after the attack she blurted out "My memory of this man's face is fading". She described Deadman's Hill as being "dark, completely and utterly dark" and went on to say that "I only had a glimpse of him. In any case I'd got my glasses off. They were in my right hand coat pocket. I can't see very clearly without them". Her description of the man changed from his having brown eyes (in her first statement) to staring, icy blue ones in her later recollection. To say her credentials as a credible eyewitness are suspect, puts matters lightly.

    The ID parade in which Hanratty was picked out was fatally compromised. Press reports had stated police were searching for a man with dyed hair (a novelty in the 1960s). Hanratty was the only man in the parade with vividly coloured hair standing out "like a carrot in a bunch of bananas", as was stated at the time. It later appeared Supt. Acott had realised how this was likely to look to a jury and had actually requested "skull caps be obtained" for the parade members - a request which was never followed-through.

    In the TV interview with her on the documentary, it was most instructive to hear Storie (a) dismiss the incorrect identification she made, rather blithely, as "one of those things" (had the man hanged for it, she presumably would have shrugged that off just as nonchalantly); and (b) not to be scrutinized by the interviewer as to why Hanratty - an accomplished small time car thief - were he guilty, would have driven the Morris Minor away lurchingly, gears crunching, having thought he had already shot dead both of the car's occupants. Why would Hanratty, who was used to driving all makes of car since his early teens, put on a pretence of being unable to drive if he was sure he had killed both Storie and Gregsten, as their attacker clearly had? This simply does not make any sense whatsoever (the man who later dumped the car was also reported to be driving in a highly inexperienced and erratic fashion). The fact that Valerie Storie was not quizzed on these points, nor on her altering descriptions of the man, was a missed opportunity and, as such, highly illuminating given the general tenor of the programme.

    The only 'evidence' really linking Hanratty is the DNA and considering the huge time span and the total failure of the authorities to give a detailed account of what happened to the fragments (handkerchief and knickers) it is highly irresponsible to state that there was no chance of contamination. In those pre-DNA days they were kept in the same box!
    So basically your saying the man that did do it is still out there and apparently has obviously been as good as gold since living a normal life?
    Just a normal family bloke who happened to be carrying a gun in 1962, walking up the A6 road with no pedestrian footpath to Deadmans's Hill (obviously had no car of his own) for some reason or other perhaps had stopped to eat his sandwiches in the middle of the night but got aroused by the steamed up windows maybe ?
    Last edited by Arfur Teacake; 01-03-11 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #16
    Member Country: Great Britain Lustgarten's Avatar
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    No. I am making no assertions as to what the real killer of Michael Gregsten did in the years following the murder. How could I know - we don't know who he was, do we?

    It is plainly ridiculous to suggest that I am saying the killer was a normal family man out eating his sandwiches. I prefer to dispassionately address the many points littering this case which give rise to very real concerns that a miscarriage of justice occurred.

    What I am saying is that in my opinion an innocent man went to the gallows and when one examines the case in detail, one finds so many glaring inconsistencies and conflicting pieces of evidence, a real doubt must still hang over this case.

    Would you care to adress any of the points yourself?

  17. #17
    Member Country: Great Britain Lustgarten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arfur Teacake View Post
    So basically your saying the man that did do it is still out there and apparently has obviously been as good as gold since living a normal life?
    Just a normal family bloke who happened to be carrying a gun in 1962, walking up the A6 road with no pedestrian footpath to Deadmans's Hill (obviously had no car of his own) for some reason or other perhaps had stopped to eat his sandwiches in the middle of the night but got aroused by the steamed up windows maybe ?
    No. I am making no assertions as to what the real killer of Michael Gregsten did in the years following the murder. How could I know - we don't know who he was, do we?

    It is plainly ridiculous to suggest that I am saying the killer was a normal family man out eating his sandwiches. I prefer to dispassionately address the many points littering this case which give rise to very real concerns that a miscarriage of justice occurred.

    What I am saying is that in my opinion an innocent man went to the gallows and when one examines the case in detail, one finds so many glaring inconsistencies and conflicting pieces of evidence, a real doubt must still hang over this case.

    Would you care to adress any of the points yourself?

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Country: UK batman's Avatar
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    Paul Foot and the other pro-Hanratty campaigners argued that the DNA evidence was probably contaminated, claiming that the DNA samples had been kept in a police laboratory for over 40 years "in conditions that do not satisfy modern evidential standards". However, no DNA other than Hanratty's was found, which there probably would have been had the evidence been contaminated.

    A man called Peter Alphon confessed to the crimes on several occasions, but later retracted his statements.

    Surely the only definitive from this case is that because individual miscarriages of justice will always happen from time to time, the death penalty must never be restored.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Country: England billy farmer's Avatar
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    Hanratty: The Mystery Of Deadman's Hill (C4 1995), updated version of the 1992 Documentary, the full Documentary can be seen in 13 parts on YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNY80h717pk

    Hanratty: The Mystery Of Deadman's Hill (C4 1992), the original 1992 Documentary, which can be
    seen in 7 parts on YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57t649u19Gs&feature=related

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    Valerie Storie got the description of his eye colour correct right from the beginning, she didn't change her mind about that, as I remember this point is made in the documentary. The press made an issue of the eye colour ID because they were mis- informed or misinterpreted information given to them by the police. In her original statement Storie did describe her assailants eyes as Blue, the press continued to report that his eyes were Brown but this was simply due to a transcript error in the original news bulletin sent to the Press Association. This is just one good example of how misinformation regarding this case somehow becomes fact and is repeated despite very clear proof to the contrary. Arguing about DNA evidence is a mute point in my opinion, I believe the DNA was extracted from the victims underwear and the source of the DNA sample I would say is difficult to question.
    Last edited by christoph404; 26-03-11 at 11:38 AM.

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