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  1. #21
    Senior Member Country: Australia wadsy's Avatar
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    Hamlet 1948

  2. #22
    Senior Member Country: Ireland Edward G's Avatar
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    A Night To Remember

  3. #23
    Senior Member Country: UK Paul Waines's Avatar
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    Hobson's Choice.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Country: Europe Heinrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by will.15 View Post
    The Maltese Falcon came out in 1941, three years before Double Indemnity. The Falcon was followed a few weeks later by the release of
    I Wake Up Screaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainWaggett View Post
    Even ignoring British noir, as this list does, there are plenty of examples before Double Indemnity.
    "Not only is Double Indemnity one of the archetypal films known as film noir but it is regarded by many as the first true film noir. It is also one of the best."
    http://blog.cinemaautopsy.com/2008/1...ble-indemnity/

  5. #25
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich View Post
    "Not only is Double Indemnity one of the archetypal films known as film noir but it is regarded by many as the first true film noir. It is also one of the best."
    http://blog.cinemaautopsy.com/2008/1...ble-indemnity/
    Ask any two people for a definition of Film Noir and you'll get at least 3 opinions

    Nobody can agree on when they started, when they finished (or if they should be considered to have finished, only covering a certain period), which was the first, how you define a Film Noir. They can't even agree on the correct plural

    Steve

  6. #26
    Senior Member Country: UK Ray's Avatar
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    The black and white film that really made a big impression on me as a 12 year old was The Third Man. When you see films again years later as an adult they can sometimes be a let down, but certainly not this Classic.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Country: UK Windyridge's Avatar
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    There are so many, it's impossible to say which is "the best".
    Darling - quintessential 60s, fabulous
    The Servant - ditto
    What a Carve Up
    A Taste of Honey
    Great Expectations (Lean)
    Brief Encounter

    To name a few classics. But "the best"? Let's make a shortlist and vote.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Country: United States will.15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich
    "Not only is Double Indemnity one of the archetypal films known as film noir but it is regarded by many as the first true film noir. It is also one of the best."
    http://blog.cinemaautopsy.com/2008/1...ble-indemnity/
    Look at this from 1941. If this isn't film noir, I don't know what it is. It may not be quite as memorable as Double Indemnity, but it has all the noir elements. It is interesting that this came out just a few weeks after The Maltese Falcon and the overweight villains in both films are photographed the same way, in shadowy low camera angles.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzh1Xsn_Mek

  9. #29
    Super Moderator Country: UK batman's Avatar
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    This video claims that Stranger on the Third Floor was the first film noir. It was released in 1940 .......

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOYlNqon_1M

  10. #30
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
    This video claims that Stranger on the Third Floor was the first film noir. It was released in 1940 .......
    Ask any two people ...

    Steve

  11. #31
    Senior Member Country: Europe Heinrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by will.15 View Post
    Look at this from 1941. If this isn't film noir, I don't know what it is. It may not be quite as memorable as Double Indemnity, but it has all the noir elements. ...
    I am not an expert. I do not know if all the elements of film noir are to be found in I wake Up Screaming: hardboiled dialogue, first person narrator, characters emerging from darkness, shadows obscuring the faces of the characters and a strong prevalence of Venetian blinds casting striped shadows over everything in shot (first used in Double Indemnity), a character getting into into this situation way out of his depth because his common sense and moral fiber go astray when he is tempted by money, a woman, or, as in the case of Double Indemnity, both and the final key element of any film noir of the femme fatale. Respected movie historians do share my opinion which I learned from them.

    "Film noir was Hollywood's really only organic artistic movement, frankly. For all intents and purposes it began with Double Indemnity." (Eddie Muller. 1998. Dark City: The lost world of film noir. New York, NY: St.Martins Press.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9CvTTyBW9M
    Last edited by Heinrich; 29-06-13 at 09:45 PM.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Country: UK Paul Waines's Avatar
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    So is the 1931 Maltese Falcon regarded as a Noir?

  13. #33
    Senior Member Country: UK hot snow's Avatar
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    the innocents

  14. #34
    Senior Member Country: Europe Heinrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Waines View Post
    So is the 1931 Maltese Falcon regarded as a Noir?
    I believe it has some elements but not all. Sam Spade was a winner, no first person, and no dark sense of doom pervading the shadows.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Country: United States will.15's Avatar
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    You don't need one first person narrator for a movie to be noir.

    That would eliminate a whole bunch of movies from consideration like The Killers and The Asphalt Jungle. In any event, I Wake up Screaming does have first person narration, but shifting ones as the movie is sometimes narrated in flashbacks.

    Sam Spade in The Maltese Falcon always being in control is a little oft kilter for noir, but everything else is in place.

    So you found a quote saying it started with DI. Plenty of other sources say it started with Strangers on the Third Floor, which was a B and didn't get a lot of attention at the time. 1941 was the year bigger budget movies were doing them like High Sierra, The Maltese Falcon and Screaming and were followed by other noirs like This Gun for Hire.

    Most of these movies have "characters emerging from darkness, shadows obscuring the faces of the characters and a strong prevalence of Venetian blinds casting striped shadows over everything in shot."

    Again, noir is not limited to a morally compromised hero, which would eliminate DOA from consideration, which also doesn't have ultra shadowy photography either.
    Last edited by will.15; 30-06-13 at 12:31 AM.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Country: Europe Heinrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by will.15 View Post
    ... So you found a quote saying it started with DI.
    If you look at my posts, Will, you will see that I provided two quotes. Wikipedia says "it is often cited as a paradigmatic film noir and as having set the standard for the films that followed in that genre."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Indemnity_(film)

    Some say Double Indemnity actually defined film noir:
    "Wilder’s film is unique in the fact that it does not follow the tropes of noir. Rather, in its definitional standpoint within the genre, Double Indemnity helps to create these tropes."
    http://www.outofordermag.com/2012/09...and-film-noir/

    While the development of film noir had its roots in German cinema and elements were added over time, Double Indemnity is reckoned to be the first to incorporate all the necessary elements. "All of the main attributes to film noir are seen first in Double Indemnity which was not only the pioneer to this genre, but is still considered one of the greatest movies of all time."
    http://www.studymode.com/essays/Film...y-1281725.html

    You hold a different opinion, Will, and that is fine with me.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Country: United States
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    Citizen Kane. No contest.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Country: UK Merton Park's Avatar
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    Hitchcock's version of The 39 Steps

    The Third Man
    Last edited by Merton Park; 30-06-13 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Error

  19. #39
    Senior Member Country: United States
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    On the topic of another arguably great black and white film, Rules of the Game, the best finest choreographed "hallway scene" in any film I think I've seen. When the friends gather in the country house for the hunt, Octave is acting as go-between for Christine and the pilot, Jerieux (sp?) The characters pass in and out of rooms without the cuckoo clock style of most films. Instead, it's more like a dance. And the brilliant Jean Renoir, himself, melting into the ensemble, unlike other directors who seem to be plopped into the scenery from the force of ego. ( I wish there had been a disclaimer: No rabbits or pheasants were harmed in the filming of this masterpiece.)

  20. #40
    Senior Member Country: UK hot snow's Avatar
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    the haunting

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