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Thread: The Dam Busters

  1. #181
    Super Moderator Country: England
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    Not true. IIRC one of the aircrew was at least part Maori.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Country: England Santonix's Avatar
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    I have checked up on the Dog's grave, it is the original one outside what used to be Gibson's office. It has now got iron railings around it, but as yet no inscription.

  3. #183
    Senior Member Country: UK CaptainWaggett's Avatar
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    I have checked up on the Dog's grave, it is the original one outside what used to be Gibson's office. It has now got iron railings around it, but as yet no inscription.
    The people on this messageboard seem to think the Scampton memorial (I assume that's the one you mean?) is being restored (someone has asked the base's museum curator). It seems to be taking quite a long time though...

  4. #184
    Senior Member Country: United States theuofc's Avatar
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    Coming later in the year, hosted by Martin Shaw (Ray Doyle from THE PROFESSIONALS):


    YouTube - Martin Shaw - Dambusters Interview

  5. #185
    Senior Member Country: United States theuofc's Avatar
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    You're welcome. The keen pilot he is, Martin Shaw also narrated a 2005 video of the 'historic' return of two Rolls Royce Merlins flying over Malta, a first since the '50s.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sk7fGHPXdk



    Given her role in The Malta Story, Muriel Pavlow has also been interested in the Merlins Over Malta project and has appeared at their events (see the MP thread in here).



    All best,



    Barbara

  6. #186
    Senior Member Country: England cornershop15's Avatar
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    Barnes Wallis in the TVTimes again, 13th April 1964

    This was four years earlier than the last article I posted (#159) and was to promote
    his appearance in the programme Something to Say, presented by Daniel Farson:


  7. #187
    Senior Member Country: England paul kersey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainWaggett View Post
    The people on this messageboard seem to think the Scampton memorial (I assume that's the one you mean?) is being restored (someone has asked the base's museum curator). It seems to be taking quite a long time though...
    BBC News - Dam Busters dog renamed for movie remake
    Spotted this today whilst browsing. Whilst I can understand Stephen Fry's sentiments, is it right to change facts ?.

  8. #188
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul kersey View Post
    BBC News - Dam Busters dog renamed for movie remake
    Spotted this today whilst browsing. Whilst I can understand Stephen Fry's sentiments, is it right to change facts ?.
    Has this surfaced again? I thought that last time it was discussed, and the time before that, the easiest thing to do would be just not to mention the dog's name. There's no real need to mention it's name. OK so it won't be 100% historically accurate if they don't use the dog's name as the code word to say that the dam has been breached - but when was any film 100% historically accurate?

    Steve

  9. #189
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    One would expect someone with Stephen Fry's sensitivity to present a script that shows something more than the one sided view of the original film.What I liked about the Martin Shaw documentary was the fact that he impartially demonstrated how the whole event is seen from both sides, his visit to the dam was quite moving, the people of that area see the result of the bombing as a human tragedy on a grand scale and a cause for mourning and remembrance rather than celebration, many civilians were killed in the process,and while there is no doubting the bravery of Guy Gibson and his crew the fact that the bombing and destruction of dams was made illegal and consequently written into the rules of The Geneva Convention makes one reflect in a more balanced way. Destroying a dam was acceptable then, it's not now, and as for that troublesome mutt.....well revisionism is something we cannot escape from as long as folks find the truth unpalatable , but we've gone over all that previously, as Steve says most historical films are full of fiction, so why should this be any different indeed. And why "digger" ? I would have thought Trigger to be the obvious name...if your looking for something that rhymes with nigger that is. Silly me...trigger was a horse.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Country: UK RogerThornhill's Avatar
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    I think that they should have gone for a completely different name. Changing just one letter draws attention to and emphasises the original name.

  11. #191
    Senior Member Country: England cassidy's Avatar
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    Mind you, that might cause offence to Roy Rogers fans !!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by christoph404 View Post
    One would expect someone with Stephen Fry's sensitivity to present a script that shows something more than the one sided view of the original film.What I liked about the Martin Shaw documentary was the fact that he impartially demonstrated how the whole event is seen from both sides, his visit to the dam was quite moving, the people of that area see the result of the bombing as a human tragedy on a grand scale and a cause for mourning and remembrance rather than celebration, many civilians were killed in the process,and while there is no doubting the bravery of Guy Gibson and his crew the fact that the bombing and destruction of dams was made illegal and consequently written into the rules of The Geneva Convention makes one reflect in a more balanced way. Destroying a dam was acceptable then, it's not now, and as for that troublesome mutt.....well revisionism is something we cannot escape from as long as folks find the truth unpalatable , but we've gone over all that previously, as Steve says most historical films are full of fiction, so why should this be any different indeed. And why "digger" ? I would have thought Trigger to be the obvious name...if your looking for something that rhymes with nigger that is. Silly me...trigger was a horse.

  12. #192
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christoph404 View Post
    Destroying a dam was acceptable then, it's not now, and as for that troublesome mutt.....well revisionism is something we cannot escape from as long as folks find the truth unpalatable , but we've gone over all that previously, as Steve says most historical films are full of fiction, so why should this be any different indeed. And why "digger" ? I would have thought Trigger to be the obvious name...if your looking for something that rhymes with nigger that is. Silly me...trigger was a horse.
    Firstly, it's a word that appears in many films (many of Scorsese's, Tarantino's and Coppola's) and the likes of The Green Mile weren't rewritten to be correct or modern. Whilst you may believe this is a noble decision, Fry clearly suggests it's due to US audiences and the commercial side of filmmaking. Kubrick himself had a 'nigga' Full Metal Jacket and a memorable scene in The Shining without causing offence. Maybe these were directors who didn't wish to offend the audiences intellect.

  13. #193
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB7 View Post
    Firstly, it's a word that appears in many films (many of Scorsese's, Tarantino's and Coppola's) and the likes of The Green Mile weren't rewritten to be correct or modern. Whilst you may believe this is a noble decision, Fry clearly suggests it's due to US audiences and the commercial side of filmmaking. Kubrick himself had a 'nigga' Full Metal Jacket and a memorable scene in The Shining without causing offence. Maybe these were directors who didn't wish to offend the audiences intellect.
    How many of those films had it said by a white man in a non-insulting way?

    In America it's perfectly acceptable for black people to use it to each other but it seems to be the worst possible word in the world when a white person uses it

    Steve

  14. #194
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
    How many of those films had it said by a white man in a non-insulting way?
    Steve
    You tell me, below is Tarantino being derogatory or projecting a realistic character?

    Either way this isn't an American film or story, if you want that then you get U571. I fear this film may make a similar mistake in dumbing down to appeal to the mainstream - have a film that connects with neither as it's not the grit or realism of The Deer Hunter or Cross of Iron, but not bubblegum enough for the Pearl Harbor (sic) market.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lFz8sXmZRk

  15. #195
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    I watched this with my youngest (15 yesterday) and he was appalled by the dogs name. He is well aware of how attitudes have changed for some and not for others, by that I mean he has witnessed members of his own family (my side) make some pretty outrageous statements regarding race. Still he was embarassed and told me he was glad that none of his friends watched the DVD with us.

  16. #196
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB7 View Post
    You tell me, below is Tarantino being derogatory or projecting a realistic character?

    Either way this isn't an American film or story, if you want that then you get U571. I fear this film may make a similar mistake in dumbing down to appeal to the mainstream - have a film that connects with neither as it's not the grit or realism of The Deer Hunter or Cross of Iron, but not bubblegum enough for the Pearl Harbor (sic) market.
    But isn't all of that irrelevant here? The dog's name isn't at all important to the plot of The Dam Busters. It could quite easily be totally un-named or given a totally different name. Including the dog's name might be historically accurate (in a very minor point which has nothing at all to do with the actual mission) but it will stir up a lot of controversy which is nothing to do with the film or the story. The use and meaning of the word has changed a lot since the 1940s.

    It's not dumbing it down to exclude the dog's name. It's deliberately missing something out that has nothing to do with the story that will cause a lot of offence.

    Steve

  17. #197
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB7 View Post
    Firstly, it's a word that appears in many films (many of Scorsese's, Tarantino's and Coppola's) and the likes of The Green Mile weren't rewritten to be correct or modern. Whilst you may believe this is a noble decision, Fry clearly suggests it's due to US audiences and the commercial side of filmmaking. Kubrick himself had a 'nigga' Full Metal Jacket and a memorable scene in The Shining without causing offence. Maybe these were directors who didn't wish to offend the audiences intellect.
    I for one don't think it's a noble decision to change the name of the dog, it's a purely commercial one, modern audiences would find it difficult to relate to our heroes indulging in a form of casual/ naive racism which was possibly the norm for that era, I think the name of the dog speaks volumes about the attitudes of the time, so by changing the name of the dog the story can conveniently just not address those issues,ironically I think changing the name of the Mutt simply draws attention to the controversy over his real name. As I said revisionism is something we cannot escape from but it's not something I necessarily agree with, it would take a skilful and brave writer to retain the original name and I think I would prefer that to be honest.

  18. #198
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christoph404 View Post
    I for one don't think it's a noble decision to change the name of the dog, it's a purely commercial one, modern audiences would find it difficult to relate to our heroes indulging in a form of casual/ naive racism which was possibly the norm for that era, I think the name of the dog speaks volumes about the attitudes of the time, so by changing the name of the dog the story can conveniently just not address those issues,ironically I think changing the name of the Mutt simply draws attention to the controversy over his real name. As I said revisionism is something we cannot escape from but it's not something I necessarily agree with, it would take a skilful and brave writer to retain the original name and I think I would prefer that to be honest.
    Put it in the context of the 1940s. It was common to call black dogs or cats "Nigger" and it (usually) had nothing to do with the modern usage or any direct connection to black people. Probably derived from the French n�gre (Negro) it is just a reference to the animal's colour, nothing else.

    Steve

  19. #199
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    I cannot comment on Tarantino, nor Coppola, but I would be very surprised if Scorsese did not concede that many of his characters were indeed racist. I think he was trying (and succeeding) in showing a certain culture or world view and to his credit he did so in a very unflinching way. He grew up on Elizabeth Street a no go zone for regular (i.e non-celebrity) black people at that time.

  20. #200
    Super Moderator Country: UK christoph404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
    Put it in the context of the 1940s. It was common to call black dogs or cats "Nigger" and it (usually) had nothing to do with the modern usage or any direct connection to black people. Probably derived from the French n�gre (Negro) it is just a reference to the animal's colour, nothing else.

    Steve
    Im not so sure about that Steve, certainly there was a naivety about using the word ,I just think the concept of offensive racism being associate with certain terms or words had not been established or recognised in those days.In the film Zulu, Bromhead as played by Michael Caine refers to " cowardly blacks" , and cringingly uses the term "fuzzy wuzzies". I guess those terms jar coming from a positive character , Tarrantino and Scorsese have an easier dilemma , their wise guy characters are fairly reprehensible in most ways, murderers, extortionists, psychopaths "get this through your head you Jew motherf***** you only exist out here because of me!" So adding racist to their list of qualities seems appropriate!
    Last edited by christoph404; 13-06-11 at 12:12 AM.

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