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  1. #61
    Senior Member Country: England cassidy's Avatar
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    I've read a few of the books in which Devlin appears and I'd always pictured Richard Harris in the part, not to mention Robert Morley as Brigadier Ferguson.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Country: UK
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    After a quick look at the end of the film, I have to admit I was wrong - the scene with Devlin (and the dogs) at the very end is a composite glass shot of the boat in a creek with the tide out. The scene I was thinking of is the one where Steiner's second in command meeets the boat.

    I'd always pictured Richard Harris in the part
    . Thats not surprising, since apparently Harris was supposed to play Devlin, but his public sympathy for the IRA (until the Harrods bombing in 1983) meant that he was possibly going to be a problem. It also has to be said that in the mid-1970's, Harris was not exactly reliable, having been an alcoholic for years, and almost dying from a cocaine overdose in 1978. Sutherland, on the other hand, didn't come with this sort of baggage, and his accent was actually pretty good. He also played an Irishman in The First Great Train Robbery (one of my all time favourites) acouple of years later.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Country: Scotland
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    For all its faults, I love this film.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Country: England markrgv's Avatar
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    I first saw this film at the cinema when i was very young (which i'm now surprised at as it was rated AA) - and an exciting experience it was.
    I saw it agin when it premiered on ITV and a few times after. Funny enough, in my teens i found it to be long drawn out and not as much action as i remembered. Then i saw it again in the mid-nineties for the first time in a long time and thought it was a great film and fantastic story.

    Since then i've become a big fan and purchased the dvd's, etc. I think it's a very well made film (though it has since been said that Sturgess didn't make much effort on it).The screenplay by Tom Mankiewicz is very well written with some great lines.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Country: Europe
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrgv View Post
    I first saw this film at the cinema when i was very young (which i'm now surprised at as it was rated AA) - and an exciting experience it was.
    I saw it agin when it premiered on ITV and a few times after. Funny enough, in my teens i found it to be long drawn out and not as much action as i remembered. Then i saw it again in the mid-nineties for the first time in a long time and thought it was a great film and fantastic story.

    Since then i've become a big fan and purchased the dvd's, etc. I think it's a very well made film (though it has since been said that Sturgess didn't make much effort on it).The screenplay by Tom Mankiewicz is very well written with some great lines.
    Shame they never filmed the sequel - they could still just about get away with the same actors portraying their roles and just moving the era forward a few more years.

    It really is worth watching it along with Went the Day Well? - a great opportunity to view changing attitudes in the 30 years after the cessation of hostilities.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Country: Scotland
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    I first saw this film at the cinema when i was very young (which i'm now surprised at as it was rated AA) - and an exciting experience it was.
    I saw it agin when it premiered on ITV and a few times after. Funny enough, in my teens i found it to be long drawn out and not as much action as i remembered. Then i saw it again in the mid-nineties for the first time in a long time and thought it was a great film and fantastic story.

    Since then i've become a big fan and purchased the dvd's, etc. I think it's a very well made film (though it has since been said that Sturgess didn't make much effort on it).The screenplay by Tom Mankiewicz is very well written with some great lines.
    Here here.

    Actually, why did I say 'for all its faults'?. Because imo it dosent, as an action/war film, have many. Excellent performances, a good story and a proper mix of action and tension.

    My biggest gripe is that is parrots the myth we invented the concentration camp.

  7. #67
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayrshireman View Post
    My biggest gripe is that is parrots the myth we invented the concentration camp.
    But it's not a myth. The British did invent them, in the Boer War. But they weren't the slave labour camps or the death camps that the Nazis turned their concentration camps into and that's what most people now think of when you use the term "concentration camp".

    The British concentration camps were just places to concentrate the Boer civilians who might have otherwise helped the Boer fighters. They weren't intended to be punishment camps in any way, but because people back then didn't have any experience of concentrating large numbers of people in a small area there were some unfortunate outbreaks of disease and some of the inmates died.

    Steve

  8. #68
    Super Moderator Country: UK batman's Avatar
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    Another film with a similar theme is the excellent Eagles Over London.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTEEq...eature=related

  9. #69
    Senior Member Country: Scotland
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    The British did invent them, in the Boer War.
    No we did not.

    As a qualified historian with an honours degree from Glasgow University, I can tell you we didnt.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Country: Scotland
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    It was in fact the Spanish who invented it, in 1868 in Cuba.

    The English word moreover is in fact an Anglicisation of the Spanish word 'reconcentrados'.

    The deaths in the camps came about because the Boer community over the decades had not intermarried with the other European groups, and as a result had no or little natural genetic resistance to certain disease such as typhus. A fatal mix of passing genetic flaws constantly within the community and no ability to 'bring in' other European genetic strands which would have helped the Boers genes.

    Hence the women and children and old people had no resistance to the rampant disease, not helped by the unintentional but appalling mismanagement of the military. There was a public and political outcry in Britain and Ireland when the nature and the horror of the camps became apparent, and that almost overnight massive changes were made, including hundreds of doctors and nurses being sent along with many supplies to South Africa, the running of the camps being civilian not military and after the changes the rampant diseases stopped and deaths ceased.
    Last edited by ayrshireman; 10-10-11 at 02:18 PM.

  11. #71
    Super Moderator Country: UK batman's Avatar
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    From MilitaryHistory@suite101 .....

    "Although the “concentration camp” is most always associated with Nazi Germany and the Holocaust of World War II, its uses began in the late 19th century, first by the Spanish in their attempt to bring to an end the Cuban insurgency that had begun in 1895, and then by the British in South Africa during the Boer War.

    Concentration camps, derived perhaps from the Spanish term reconcentrado, refer to militarily supervised installations usually located in remote areas designed to contain or house thousands of civilians, usually anyone considered a threat to the regime.

    The Spanish reconcentrados placed nearly all of Cuba’s native population into camps, causing U.S. President William McKinley to remark that this “was not civilized warfare…but extermination.”


  12. #72
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayrshireman View Post
    It was in fact the Spanish who invented it, in 1868 in Cuba.

    The English word moreover is in fact an Anglicisation of the Spanish word 'reconcentrados'.
    But the Spanish didn't call them "concentration camps"

    It's the phrase, not what they actually were, that misleads and confuses most people

    Steve

  13. #73
    Senior Member Country: Wales
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    The best 'brit' WW2 blockbuster for me has to be A Bridge Too Far, American would be Saving Private Ryan the opening battle scene has to be one of the greatest openings to a film ever caught on camera.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Country: Europe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
    But the Spanish didn't call them "concentration camps"

    It's the phrase, not what they actually were, that misleads and confuses most people

    Steve
    You'll not get the last word when jousting with Steve

  15. #75
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fellwanderer View Post
    You'll not get the last word when jousting with Steve
    You will if what you say is correct in all details

    Steve

  16. #76
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_in_wales View Post
    The best 'brit' WW2 blockbuster for me has to be A Bridge Too Far, American would be Saving Private Ryan the opening battle scene has to be one of the greatest openings to a film ever caught on camera.
    The opening is very good. It's a shame that the final battle is so unrealistic. They must have spent all the budget and all their creativity on that opening

    I'll second your vote for A Bridge Too Far. Mainly because it is as historically accurate as any film can hope to be and that most of the identified characters are based quite accurately on the real people, and the actors often look like the real people as well.

    Operation Market Garden was a series of events that went wrong or that didn't work out as expected. Had just a few of them gone right or just gone a bit better then the whole operation might well have worked. It was still an amazing feat of arms

    Steve

  17. #77
    Senior Member Country: England markrgv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayrshireman View Post
    No we did not.

    As a qualified historian with an honours degree from Glasgow University, I can tell you we didnt.
    Thanks for the info. I also had always thought (or been wrongly taught) that they were British.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
    Operation Market Garden was a series of events that went wrong or that didn't work out as expected. Had just a few of them gone right or just gone a bit better then the whole operation might well have worked. It was still an amazing feat of arms

    Steve
    Unfortunately - as often happens in war - what seemed a good operation on paper, went badly wrong when tried. With so many links in the Operation Market Garden chain, only one had to go wrong to then start a series of disasters.

    Yes, A Bridge Too Far is a very good film. Very well made and directed. If made now i'm sure it would win a lot of Oscars.

  18. #78
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrgv View Post
    Unfortunately - as often happens in war - what seemed a good operation on paper, went badly wrong when tried. With so many links in the Operation Market Garden chain, only one had to go wrong to then start a series of disasters.
    Au contraire. Most of the disasters and mistakes were unrelated. If a few of the things that went wrong had gone right then they could have managed the whole operation.

    John Frost's motley crew at the bridge held out for much longer than they were expected to with a lot more men & equipment. On their last day there Thirty Corps were just about within range to drop artillery fire on the attacking Germans. But by then the last of the Paras were being burnt out of the last few buildings. It nearly worked.

    It was always known that it was a risky operation and some silly mistakes were made. But had it worked it would have made a huge difference to the outcome of the rest of the war, so it was worth trying

    Steve

  19. #79
    Senior Member Country: Wales
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    It may have made a big difference but the Germans were pulling supprises out of the hat until pretty much the very end. The idea of XXX (30) Corps pushing up that length of road in the timescale given was optimistic to say the least, Dutch and RAF reports of armour in the area were all but ignored or brushed off as were intercepteed radio communications, the communication failure due to wrong crystals fitted to sets should have been sorted out etc etc. Montgomery claimed Market garden a 80 or 90% success (can't remember the exact percentage he quoted) and a member of the Dutch government in exile (IIRC) commented words to the effect that "Holland cannot afford anymore of Montgomery's successes"

    The para's performed remarkable well, as usual :) I had a great uncle who was there and I did ask him before he died what it was like (he had seen the film with me) and he said "we were a lot dirtier than in the film" but apart from that he enjoyed it.

    I enjoyed Private Ryan, seems to have been influenced by 'The Fighting Sullivans' but still a good yarn.

  20. #80
    Senior Member Country: England markrgv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
    Au contraire. Most of the disasters and mistakes were unrelated. Steve
    That may be so. But a number of them were. A bridge was destroyed and this immediately caused a huge delay that they ultimately never recovered from.They were later delayed again at Nijmegen. It meant men further up the chain were cut off from the support they were going to receive from XXX Corps.

    The regiment that held out until over-run at Arnhem did an incredible job - what should have been hours turning into days.

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