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  1. #1
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    Hi everyone, haven't been posting in here for months, I appologise for my absence

    I should be made to walk 'The Hill' for sure.



    I'd like peoples help in regards to a subject that I feel very strongly about:

    Rare British films and their availability.



    It's a tricky subject that brings up far too many issues for me to start spouting out

    here. There are loads of films I've seen that only a few people have seen and these

    are films, albeit under-rated and under-appreciated, some are hidden masterpieces,

    lost films of importance, neglected by critics, loved by audiences. The point is, people

    want to see these films and they deserve to be seen in digital DVD quality.



    I just saw a film this week on C4 called The Day My Number Came Up. I've never

    seen such an amazing and inspiring film. It's outstanding, and, alas, I didn't tape it

    on video. So this is my point. I'm going to buy a DVD-recorder in a few weeks so I

    can tape my favourite british films on DVD. :) A DVD recording is way better than

    a VHS and lasts for decades. I intend to record A LOT of rare classic films that

    are not available on VHS & DVD.



    So I've got a few questions:

    Is it illegal for me to 'sell' a DVD-R recording of a film?

    Is it illegal if the 'sale' is just sold "collector-to-collector"? [it's not like I'm going to

    be setting up a blooming market]



    And more importantly, would anyone in this forum actually want to buy these rare

    films on DVD-R? [they play on most DVD players I'm told, they even play on PS2]



    It's just an idea I've had, I mean I intend to record my favourites on DVD, just thought

    it might be nice to let others see these films in Digital quality.



    Any comments, suggestions, would greatly be appreciated, cheers.

    STE

  2. #2
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    The problem any lover of old films faces.



    You can transfer from VHS to DVD but of course the quality won't improve - you'll just be changing formats.



    There are a couple of collector's hereabouts and others are likely to reply using a private message. I've tracked down no end of films I've been looking for thanks to the assistance of others.



    There's also a few websites that offer video copies for collector's (often at the price of the blank tape & postage) and thus far nobody seems concerned about their existence - obviously the films they sell wouldn't have mass appeal and get a release on DVD anyway, plus the anti-piracy bods are too concerned about the pirating of new films and music p2p networks.



    Coincidentally only today I saw that fave "want", The Ghost Train, for sale on DVD..



    Buyer's are always about as the "Looking for a Video" forum shows but building a catalogue is another matter.



    Sounds like I'm in an Ealing film or the Beer Baron episode of The Simpsons. wink

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Country: Fiji
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    Firstly, which recorder are you buying ? Compatibility is still a big issue and depends (on my experience) as much on the disc as well as the receiving machine...



    Yes, it would be illegal to sell on these films ; regardless of their lack of commercial availability, you would still be in breach of copyright under intellectual property rules.



    There is a thriving collector-to-collector trade amidst the internet communities, something to which it would seem a 'blind eye' is turned as long as it is not commercial and doesn't involve the bootlegging of latest Hollywood titles.



    There's an argument for the collector in that these films are not commercially available, nor are they ever likely to be; so best defence would probably be that you are exchanging films, but are not distributing for profit. I would guess that the profit motive would be the biggest test of any legal argument here. This being said, at the core is the fact that copyright remains with the producer and whether or not he sees fit to exploit the property commercially is neither here nor there if one is found to be duplicating and distributing his or her product.



    Some time ago there was a law mooted to restrict the shelf-life of home-recorded videos to so many days. Whether that took effect or not I don't know (can anybody tell me ?) but it would be rather difficult to police. If this is in, we shouldn't be collecting anyway ! ;-)



    The other point on longevity is that no-one has truly road tested DVD-R and there have been some messages in forums where cheaper discs have been found to 'go off' after a number of plays, so this is something else you may wish to research before going forward.



    Finally, what do you mean by 'rare' ? You have to bear in mind that a lot of films on terrestrial come round again quite quickly these days and most of these will be collected already. In the growing antipathy towards B&W, I think your collection has to go back a few years to get the more scare films - or something like THE RISE AND RISE OF MICHAEL RIMMER which, I seem to recall, Ch 5 only ever showed once...



    Anyway, good luck with your purchase (and your research) and be aware that sometimes it doesn't pay to advertise ! :-)

  4. #4
    Senior Member Country: Great Britain
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    Interesting thread...



    DB7 - you mention a few web sites where for the price of a blank tape and postage, a collector can have access to rare films. There are many films I'd love to see. Can you possibly name these sites?



    Thanks for your help

    Rob

  5. #5
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    DB7, Smudge, Rob Compton, & other members,



    thanks for your replies. I'll try and answer all your points.

    DB7, you don't sound like an old Ealing film, your comments are very valid and I appreciate

    what you've said. I'm not going to be transferring my VHS tapes to DVD as the quality as you

    say would just be a Digital VHS, no point really. What I plan on doing is recording on DVD all

    the British rare films.



    The result is a preserved Digital recording with over 500+ lines of resolution.

    [video is 240 lines].On the DVD recorder there is also a function which allows me to 'fit' a

    recording across the whole DVD disc which would increase the already pristine quality

    to more lines of resolution.



    Private messages are great things but not all the message users can see what's going on.

    I suggest that everyone who has a favourite film[s] should just shout from the roof top in this

    message thread and post away with the film[s] that they want.



    I have no intention of making any profit, I'm not a scoundrel :) . Profit = illegal and I'm not into

    that. I guess that it would cost, what, 5 quid for the film on DVD, with artwork maybe.

    Encased in a sturdy DVD case, and postage and packaging would be included. the cost of

    the disc. 5 quid is clear that I wouldn't be making a profit from it. And besides, its up to the

    people out there in this forum.



    There's been talk in another message that Ealing's DVD boxset, with Dead Of Night included has

    a terrible picture quality . This is strange as Film Four I'm sure used to show a beautiful print.

    That on a DVD-R would be preserved in pristine quality with Dolby Digital 2.0 audio [not mono!].



    I'd only be recording the classic British films that are hard-to-find and rare. Off the TV, no VHS

    conversions, they'd all be completely Digital recordings. BBC 2 recently showed a print of Henry

    VIII And His Six Wives [the film, not the TV series]. The last time I saw that was when I was a kid!.

    It was even in Widescreen 1.85:1. I'll have u all know that I'm a young film fan [22] with a vast

    appreciation for the classic films.



    A good point is some of these films are already available on DVD, so I'd have no point recording

    them, and I won't. I intend to record the films that have been shamessly DELETED and the films

    that have never been released on DVD to buy, and films that have only been released on dodgy

    VHS. Also, there are loads of old British classics that haven't ever been released.



    Off the top of my head, I'll spout out 6 films I want to record on DVD:



    House Of Secrets

    RARE, never released to buy. Amazing espionage film from the 50's. Was a Digitally Remastered

    print and was an early prototype to the bond films, especially Goldfinger.



    Hell Drivers

    Super rare and DELETED, everyone knows this one. The very definition of a classic British film.

    Used to be shown a lot on C4, turned up last on BBC 2 in a Digitally Remastered form in it's

    original VistaVison Widescreen Aspect Ratio of 1.85:1. It was beautiful, that's one I deffinately

    want to record on DVD the next time they show it. There was an australian original VHS of this

    film on an Amazon auction for over 50 dollars!, scandalous.



    The Good Die Young

    Only released on DD Video [cheap]. Stunning British Noir with Laurence Harvey, Stanley Baker

    and Richard Baseheart. I love this film, it's a stunner. C4 show this film.



    Footsteps In The Fog

    This is one of my favs. A melodrama thriller in the tradition of Gaslight in colour. Stewart Granger's

    best film, did he or did he not kill his last wife?, and will he kill his maid servant that has fallen in

    love with him. A score to outscore Bernard Herrmann, it's a real Hitchcockian suspenser. Was

    shown on C4 in Widescreen 1.85:1.



    The Day My Number Came Up

    I just saw this one this week and I was left breathless. The whole film I was on the edge of my seat

    and left in constant suspense. This one is RARE. Great cast, story about premonition and a man

    who has a dream about a plane crash and tells his friends [who just happen to be flying the next

    day] Will it come true or not? Superb performance by Alexander Knox. This film was way ahead

    of it's time and ranks along with Dead Of Night for the premonition segment.



    The Long Memory

    John Mills is the innocent man who just gets out of prison and swears vengeance on the people

    responsible for his sentence. This one is the definitive english noir with superb direction and camera

    work. It's a film I'll never forget.



    So there's 6 films I love, only one of which is available on VHS.



    The DVD recorder that I'm going to buy is the new Panasonic DMR-E50 DVD Recorder / Player.

    It's a beauty, with Progressive Scan for superb resolution.



    And the plan is none profit, purely collector-to-collector based. Why should people be stuck with

    watching VHS recordings?.



    And unlike the crap Sony and Phillips DVD recorders, the Pansonic allows me to record on normal

    [non Sony/Phillips] DVD-R discs. Not the brand DVD-R+ which are a rip off and non compatible

    with any DVD player except Sony/Phillips. You can even play these DVD-R discs on a PS2 and an

    X-BOX apparently. That's how compatible they are.



    A film is as rare as a person wants it to be. The above films are rare, even though you can get The

    Good Die Young on VHS, I still class it as rare because you cannot buy it in Digital DVD quality.

    A film like Ice Cold In Alex isn't rare as you can buy it in Digital DVD quality. 5 out of the 6 films I've

    mentioned have never been released in any format, and 2 of the 5 prints are in Widescreen. I've

    been constantly let down by pan and scan fullframe prints on VHS. I have no intention of buying a

    VHS ever again. My idea is to buy a bulk-lot of DVD-R's [100's!], and record a minimum of 3 British

    films a week that are on UK TV. If there are six rare films being shown that sound classic and are

    rare, I'll record them on DVD. I plan on having a huge collection of these films for myself and for

    other collectors who are interested in the specific titles. It's all up to you, I'm not fussed either way.

    But we all have our favourites, and a lot of them are rare.



    I think it would be a wicked idea for members to post in this thread, the films that they really want

    to see. I'll keep a look out for all the films on TV and record them for u.



    More comments will be great. Cheers.

  6. #6
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    I admire and agree with your commitment Ste, like yourself I am totally disgusted with the way old(B&W) films are treated by the industry.Even the way British TV companies treat them, you only have to see the percentage of British films matched against the number of American films in any week. What also annoys is the amount of air time taken up by really awful US films.

    We can only live in hope each week that maybe this is the week they will show... The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer for example.



    Like yourself Rob I would be interested in any other sites which might provide an answer



    Thanks

  7. #7
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    So much to comment on.



    Smudge, I think the law you commented on collapsed because it would have required people to wipe their recordings of say Eastenders within 28 days. Part of the problem is that in Europe blank tapes are taxed and this money is used to compensate right's holders. As you say, who on earth has the time and manpower to police the nation's video collections?



    I believe the law is still that personal copies are ok as long as they are only shown in your home for private use.



    I've dealt with a couple of collector's websites Stateside, some are clearly in it for the love of films and sell their tapes at a very reasonable rate but I know of some that have a very slick look and sell their wares at a nice profit - and don't point out they're selling 2nd gen copies (tho it is obvious they are).



    I should also say, there's a very nice lady that lurks these forums that has always been great to deal with and very reasonable. wink



    I'll PM some links to those that asked. Sadly therre's some other good dealers I've not bookmarked.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Country: Fiji
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    Ste-



    Good calls on the films there.



    HOUSE OF SECRETS was on lately - very nice too. Now I want a re-run of SAPPHIRE, so I can ditch my old VHS with both on.



    HELL DRIVERS went away for ages and has been on twice in the past 12-24 mths IIRC.



    GOOD DIE YOUNG was on recently and the blighters at CH4 left the Interactive button on all the way through (thanks BIG BROTHER !).



    FOOTSTEPS appears on SKY (?) of late.



    NUMBER and LONG MEMORY were both on in the past few weeks. Think I missed MEMORY.



    I use the Panasonic recorders too - thank goodness for the PlayList function and span record.



    I AM redubbing my old VHS's on medium cost discs as a 'just in case' measure, should one or two things never return. Old EDGAR WALLACES, that sort of thing...



    I am also grabbing TV prints of some films which the DVD releases get a poor review. DEAD OF NIGHT is one example, as is TITFIELD THUNDERBOLT.



    I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with the concept of a film collector's exchange and would love to see a really good site with as comprehensive a list as could be managed. I am sure, however, that (eventually) someone would 'get legal' with such a site. Hence we have to keep using messageboards and smaller sites or forums to build out collections piecemeal.



    I wonder if the BEEB will be putting a levy on their downloads site; despite the fact that UK Licencepayers funded the films anyway ? Hope they have BIG robust servers...



    As my post before, I would advise buying the best (reviewed/quality) DVD-Rs you can afford. Speaking from experience the initial burst is to go for plenty and maximise what you can buy - I am now having second thoughts about this.



    Fortunately a lot of these were for VHS dubbing and the films have since come round again. Still a bit of a downer though to chuck the VHS which had full screen width credits and very little talkover.



    As I said, some users (commercial guys who put wedding vids on DVD etc.) have complained that the cheaper discs have started blocking out/shutting down after only a few plays ; some mention figures lower that 20!



    The niggle will come when there are two or three films you'll want to record when you are out and there's no-on home to switch through the digibox!



    Most folks say 2hrs is the best quality record length you can go for - after that, deterioration goes too far. I'd disagree and say that you can still get reasonable up to 2.5hrs.



    And as for MICHAEL RIMMER - well, my aerial chose that day to throw a fit, so my copy ain't wonderful - and now with 5 upping their profile and documentary content, to look like a PROPER TV station, I wonder what the chances are of them ever repeating it...? Damn and blast.



    And FilmFour - well, whatever happened to that ? LOL

  9. #9
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    A superb film which is available on DVD is The Day the Earh Caught Fire in widescreen with Val Guest's Directors commentary and other stuff. This is a film which proves just how good British films can be,and is highly recommended to anyone who hasn't seen it.

    Two other loves of mine which unfortunately aren't available in any format are It Always Rains on a Sunday, a 1947 Ealing release starring Googie Withers, John McCallum, Jack Warner etc.

    It just has a wonderful Sunday dreariness to it highlighted by a darts match, the Sunday joint, oh and an escaped convict, and typical British weather.

    The other one is Seven Days to Noon a wonderful nuclear doomsday film released in 1950 directed by John Boulting. It manages to deliver the type of film which Hollywood today would have to bankrupt a studio for and still deliver a tenth of the film this is.

  10. #10
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    I meant to add, if anyone else can make any recommendations, preferably those that are available I for one would be grateful.



    I've just remembered another superb release which is available at a reasonable price is the 4DVD set Hammer House of Horror, the TV series from the 80's, the set contains the full 13 stories/episodes.



    Anyone else who was stuck at home on a Saturday night in the early 80's will remember it well

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Country: Fiji
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    Some films I'd like to see available are :



    THE OFFENCE - Sidney Lumet. One of Sean Connery's finest IMHO.



    TWISTED NERVE - another of those 60s Hywel Bennett/Hayley Mills psycho pieces.



    REVENGE - Sidney Hayers. Very similar to OFFENCE but even more constricted. Great performance by Kenneth Griffith, and Ray Barrett is a very good coward in it.



    Anything out of Merton Park, that long forgotten B-Movie studio.



    THE SANDWICH MAN - not a masterpiece, but a great skit-based showcase for loads of comedy talent of the time.



    KINGS AND DESPERATE MAN - Patrick McGoohan, post The Prisoner.



    ROBBERY - Stanley Baker ; need I say more ?



    THE BESPOKE OVERCOAT - A tiny masterpiece with David Kossoff and Alfie Bass.



    RING OF SPIES - Kossoff again, and Bernard Lee in the true story of the Ruislip spies Peter and Helen Kroger. An excellent Robert Tronson film.



    HERE WE GO ROUND THE MULBERRY BUSH - Just a piece of swinging 60s fluff directed by Clive Donner.



    CROSSPLOT - Pre-Bond Roger Moore; more swinging 60s nostalgia.



    BEDAZZLED - The proper version with Pete and Dud !



    I had better stop, I am near enough bankrupt already !! eek!

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Country: Fiji
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    Oops !!



    Forgot David Greene's I START COUNTING ; a lovely (sigh) young Jenny Agutter, Simon Ward in a little thriller filmed in the same place as THE OFFENCE.



    Incidentally, any residents of Bracknell here ? If so, do those flats still exist ?



    One out on DVD (R1) AND SOON THE DARKNESS - Robert Fuest's taut, Hitchcockian, French located thriller. The wife said to throw that one in - one of her favourites. (Mercifully she's a cinephile too !)

  13. #13
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    Interesting thing about 'And Soon The Darkness'. I'm an aspiring film-maker [it's so frustrating

    with the industry as it is...a complete lack of filmic quality and entertainment!], and my mum

    has mentioned this film a few times. She saw it when she was young at the cinema and was

    afraid to walk home, it scared here that much!. Of course I really wanted to see it for myself,

    ebay had old US VHS editions selling at a ridiculous price, so all bets were off.



    Then I heard Anchor Bay were rumoured to be releasing it in America on DVD. I held my breath

    and they did, I'm thinking of ordering it soon before it gets DELETED. I'd love to hear other people's

    comments on this creepy chiller. I have visions of some scenes my mum told me about it. The

    lonely countryside setting of France seems a very clever locale for daylight terror. From what I

    can tell, the film has a bit of a cult status as a Euro-chiller/horror film. I can't wait to see it!



    After all, when was the last time you saw a film that actually scared you?

  14. #14
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    Go ahead Ste - order AND SOON...



    I am sure that you won't be disappointed. The film engenders a near complete sense of isolation and vulnerability, due to Fuest's use of long open roads and the fact that most of the French characters in it actually speak French; without subtitles.



    Rather than overt horror, this one is all about atmosphere and really hangs on the 'who-can-you-rely-upon ?' plot. Of course it was a great idea to set all this suspense at the height of summer, on glorious sunny days too.



    One of the films to come out of Bryan Forbes' short tenure as studio manager at ABPC Elstree - most of which have since been re-appraised and some haven't come off too badly, such as MAN WHO HAUNTED HIMSELF.



    When you first watch it, makes sure your Mum's out of the room so she's not tempted to give away the ending... wink

  15. #15
    Senior Member Country: England sanndevil's Avatar
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    Has anybody on the forum considered going into DVD production? I'm not sure the argument that the films mentioned won't generate the income necessary to break even is valid, afterall the Redemption / Jezebel / Salvation mob seem to be doing ok out of kitsch soft porn and horror.



    I come from a self-employed IT background, so I am comfortable with DVD technology / authoring / general office bookkeeping and sales, but does anyone have industry experience of:



    1. Costs of transfer from 35 film stock to DVD;

    2. Costs of UK Rights for a minor UK movie?



    I know these are 'how long is a piece of string' questions, but generic figures would be helpful.



    I'm beginning to think that it may be possible for one or two people (incl myself) to pool resources and perhaps set up a small DVD authoring house. Any thoughts / takers?



    Cheers

    Nigel

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    Haven't got a DVD player yet but the computer grudgingly plays them so STE, if you are still planning on recording things on to DVD, here is a very brief sample of my wish list!



    MY DEATH IS A MOCKERY (1951) and PORT OF ESCAPE (1956), two, I think, B movies with Bill Kerr in, along with Donald Houston in the first film and Googie Withers & John McCallum in the second. I keep getting my hopes up that they'll be on at about 3 in the morning on ITV, but it only ever seems to be 'Gaolbreak' and 'Cover Girl Killer' at the moment...



    DANGER WITHIN and DANCE HALL would be welcome, as would THE BLUE LAGOON, from 1949, which seems to have disappeared. It would be great to have A KID FOR TWO FARTHINGS on DVD as that would look stunning in digital quality.



    Oh, by the way, if you go on to the Blackstar website they are taking pre-orders for the DVD of HELL DRIVERS which will be released on 26th January. Great news! Don't want to rant off topic too much but it would be fantastic if there were far more Stanley Baker films on TV as IMHO he is not as widely known these days as he should be. The last however many years has seen a resurgence in popularity of Michael Caine and his elevation to lad icon; it's about time for a Stanley Baker revival.



    I also think that it is about time more attention was given to past British actors in the media in general so that more interest could be created in them. (There was a very poor British showing in that Channel 4 poll.) Programmes like the recent David Niven documentary are a good start, but there's a long way to go.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    I've come across a couple of sites selling DVD-R's of old classics. One using a co.uk domain and another US-based site selling discs usder the claim "movies that have not renewed copyright. They are in the "Public Domain" and can be packaged, resold and recorded in various formats legally for distribution."



    Having had a quick peek at their list I immediately spotted Roy Ward-Baker's Asylum (1972) so I'm a bit sceptical as it's been recently released on DVD.

  18. #18
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    I'd be dubious of any claim like that. Wasn't copyright extended to 75 years?



    I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't use services like that. Just be aware of the situation. If they're of dubious quality it does make it harder to complain



    Steve

  19. #19
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    I've tried a few. Some provide accurate information on the condition of the copy, whilst others fail to mention they are selling second gen copies and charge an exorbitant amount.



    I'll send you a mail of the sites I'm talking of Steve.

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    I share SteveCrook's concern - "public domain" is a notoriously nebulous concept that often has little legal basis, especially in the case of sites like these.



    Also, definitions vary from country to country: what's public domain in the US may not be (and probably isn't) public domain here - a very good example being Hitchcock's British films.



    In the case of the original request, 'The Night My Number Came Up' is currently owned by Canal Plus (which bought up the old Ealing catalogue a few years ago), and you would certainly need their permission in order to stay on the right side of the law regarding ANY form of distribution, profit-making or otherwise. Altruistic motives about letting more people see this masterpiece don't cut much ice with copyright holders when they're on the warpath.



    And Sanndevil... you're right about the length of pieces of string. The cost of producing a DVD depends on all sorts of factors, such as the availability and condition of original materials (often shockingly poor: splices, scratches, colour fading, you name it), the quality of the telecine (doing it in one go is vastly cheaper than grading it shot-by-shot, but the latter is obviously far better quality-wise), whether or not any kind of clean-up (analogue or digital) is necessary, DVD authoring (bog-standard single-menu or elaborate multimedia interface?), extras and so on.



    And much the same is true of the rights: 'Lawrence of Arabia' would obviously cost you millions even if Columbia was minded to sell, but an obscure cheapie from decades ago probably only a few thousand (or even hundreds, if it's REALLY obscure). Basically, the price reflects the likely sales and profits, and is negotiated on a per-title basis.



    You also have to factor in physical production, distribution and marketing costs, and BBFC classification (compulsory for DVD) - so if you're talking producing a DVD from scratch (i.e. a celluloid original), we're talking a budget of high four figures minimum and probably five.

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