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  1. #81
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    Thanks for the up to date pictures too. Although I don't live in the area, I still visit from time to time. Next time I do I will seek out the Allcroft
    Road sign as it helps to visualise the old line of the street.

    Regarding the question you posed with the scan of your postcard of Rochford Street, I note that the 1912/1913 streetmap shows the building on the corner of Southampton Road and Rochford Street as a public house. I think it was the Gospel Oak?

    http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/n...gospeloak.html

    Although your scan is small, the building and the one next door look the same as the one in the the link above.

    Another pub further down Rochford Street too ...
    http://www.englishheritagearchives.o...io=False&l=all

  2. #82
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    Snowy you are a very good detective.

    That's exactly the pub and the picture. It's only been there a few days and I've never seen a picture of it before anywhere. It's amazing what can turn up.

    What map are you using for reference (1912/13) is it online as I'm trying to track down the site of 'Gospel Oak Congregational Church, Southampton Road' as seen in the below link. Hardly any of it is visible through the tree's unfortunately but you can see quite an elaborate arch or doorway where the men are standing.

    http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/c...3598&sp=X&sp=2

    That's brilliant you found that picture of the King Harold. Another one ticked off the list!

    Is it OK if I contact the closed pub project and let them know the link. I don't suppose they can use the picture due to copyright but they can probably link to the full page in the pub details.

    All the best.
    Last edited by scarymonster; 27-10-14 at 10:10 PM.

  3. #83
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    We should collaborate. I am trying to recreate as much of the 1912/1913 map as I can by reference to pictures and other documentary sources (1860s - 1960s). The maps I am using are the most detailed I have been able to find. West Kentish Town/Gospel Oak straddles the Ordnance survey London Sheet 38 (Kentish Town & Camden) published in 1913 and the London Sheet 28 (Gospel Oak) published in 1912. Both maps are readily available on Ebay/Amazon as re-prints, priced about �2.50 plus postage. I have put together a composite map and begun to mark the site/scope of any pictures I have been able to find. Hence my interest in this thread and your postcard postings!

    The Gospel Oak Congregational Church in the photograph appears on the map (Gospel Oak sheet). It is the sixth property down Southampton Road from the Mansfield Road/Lismore Road junction. In fact I think it is possible to see in the photograph two useful markers: (1) the ground and first floor bay windows in the 3 story terrace houses in the north side of Mansfield Road - they may still be there? (2) the tall curved lamp standard with a globe fitting outside the Mansfield Hotel - which match with the picture of that hotel which appears on this postcard (link below). I see that in the second picture below the lamppost has been replaced with a more modern lamp post and fitting.

    http://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/St...ldTavern.shtml

    Very happy for you to contact the closed pubs site with details of the King Harold too.

    Best regards

    Peter

  4. #84
    Senior Member Country: England
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    There is a church shown on my 1930s map in Southampton Road that would have been about 100 yards from the junction with Mansfield Road, I wonder of the houses in the far background are these:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55...lw!2e0!6m1!1e1

    posted 2 mins after Peter!
    Last edited by tavistock; 28-10-14 at 12:36 AM. Reason: update

  5. #85
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    You can just make out the church if you use the zoom facility here http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/i...el%20oak&ref=1

  6. #86
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    What a shame that picture is not clearer. I've been looking on there now and again for a while but never found anything that gets me where I want to be. It's always right on the edge or like that one very blurred. Good site though.

  7. #87
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    Another mystery that has been bugging me since I found that picture of Gospel Oak Congregational Church in #82.

    Back in late 2008 there was an auction on Ebay of a picture that purported to be of a building of the same name I'm sure.

    I saved a picture but unfortunately not the text of the auction and the writing on the building is unclear. I did not buy the photo as it went for silly money at the time. I think I bid something like �20 and it sold for more than �80 but I can't remember the exact figure.



    Could this building be a replacement built on the site of the building in #82?

    That does look like hoarding in the picture (#82) and perhaps those men are workmen and not congregation? But if that is the case, why are the trees still there. Look at the mess on the path or road. What's going on! :)
    Last edited by scarymonster; 29-10-14 at 10:36 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowy5258 View Post
    The Gospel Oak Congregational Church in the photograph appears on the map (Gospel Oak sheet). It is the sixth property down Southampton Road from the Mansfield Road/Lismore Road junction. In fact I think it is possible to see in the photograph two useful markers: (1) the ground and first floor bay windows in the 3 story terrace houses in the north side of Mansfield Road - they may still be there? (2) the tall curved lamp standard with a globe fitting outside the Mansfield Hotel - which match with the picture of that hotel which appears on this postcard (link below). I see that in the second picture below the lamppost has been replaced with a more modern lamp post and fitting.
    More great detective work there. I did wonder about those houses being at the top end of Mansfield but I also wondered if that could be the case as the Hotel was not there. However I did not spot the curved lamp. Excellent.

  9. #89
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    I think I can shed some light on the Gospel Oak Congregational Church.

    As we have established, the church was on Southampton Road, as per this photo attributed to 1909.
    http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/c...3598&sp=X&sp=2

    In the 1899 book The Story of Gospel Oak Church there is a full frontal photograph of the church attributed to 1898.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042095@N03/15484193167

    Although the photo does not scan well, it is the same building - double arched entrence porch - same wall, pillars and railings.

    The 1912 map for Gospel Oak has the Congregational Church marked on it. As expected it fronts onto Southampton Road. However, the crucial thing is that the Sunday School, associated with it, is marked separately behind the church. It fronts on to Lismore Road.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042095@N03/15670428051

    This extract from The Story of Gospel Oak Church describes the building of the Sunday School building in 1874/5.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042095@N03/15672369985

    The book goes on to describe how the Sunday School building was enlarged for continued use although the freehold was sold off .... 'In the beginning of 1890 a Committee was appointed to consider the best method of dealing with the freehold cottage and garden in the Lismore Road. The property was subject to a mortgage of �600, and it had become a burden to the Church. Messrs. G. H. Powell, J. Inman, D. Davies, W. Mannering and G. A. Wall, the members of this Committee, advised that, before parting with the freehold, arrangements should be made to secure a needed enlargement of the schoolroom, as well as additional classroom accommodation. It was roughly estimated that �450 would be required to carry this plan into execution. Mr. Powell, Mr. Inman, and Mr. Mannering agreed to provide a considerable part of this amount, and as a result of this offer with others a Committee was appointed to direct this scheme of enlargement. Plans were prepared by Mr. G. A. Wall, and Messrs. Lown's tender was accepted. The cottage and residue of land was sold to Mr. Staves.'

  10. #90
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    Wow, that's amazing. I never thought I would get to see a picture of what was hidden behind those tree's.

    I really do need to get hold of those maps they are very detailed as now I've seen the map something else I have makes sense.

    Have you ever seen a picture of the Laundry in Rochford Street?
    Last edited by scarymonster; 31-10-14 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #91
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    Originally the laundry was a Mission Hall so there might be some more information elsewhere. William Ellis school started in Rochford St although I can't see any schools on the old maps (unless it was in the Mission Hall). In the film Smashing Times when they are outside the cafe there is a brief glimpse of the school land behind the church, which by then was a cleared site and used by Seth Coaches. This looks like it is around Gospel Oak https://www.flickr.com/photos/aptisman/14567159595/

  12. #92
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    RochfordStreet-RoseLaundry35787_zpsb4085501.jpg

    tavistock said
    "Originally the laundry was a Mission Hall so there might be some more information elsewhere."

    I thought it looked like a strange laundry.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by tavistock View Post
    Originally the laundry was a Mission Hall so there might be some more information elsewhere. William Ellis school started in Rochford St although I can't see any schools on the old maps (unless it was in the Mission Hall). In the film Smashing Times when they are outside the cafe there is a brief glimpse of the school land behind the church, which by then was a cleared site and used by Seth Coaches. This looks like it is around Gospel Oak https://www.flickr.com/photos/aptisman/14567159595/
    I wonder if that photo is taken in Lismore Road.

    Can anyone make out the name of the shop with the barber sign above it. The link below seems to be the largest scan available on the webpage.

    http://farm3.staticflickr.com//2904/...d2b2c4fe_h.jpg

  14. #94
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    I am afraid that my eyesight is not up to reading the name below the barber's sign ... but I have researched the background to the laundry in Rochford Street.

    The best place to start is a map from 1878 (see extract below).
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...57648635168709

    It show the land between Circus Road (renamed Rochford Street by 1908) in the 1878 map that had been compulsorily purchased by the Midland railway for the cutting west of Lismore Circus and Haverstock Hill station (opened in 1868). The red marking (part of the original map) covers part of the large building that fronts Circus Road.

    In fact, after building the cutting and station, the Midland Railway offered the surplus land for sale - see advert that appeared in the Times on 24 October 1868 below).
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...7648635168709/

    The scan is hard to read but it says "The Gospel Oak Schools (Freehold) in the Circus Road, an eligible and valuable building and site, adapted for an institution or other similar purposes." Interestingly, the same advert lists other properties for sale including the Railway Tavern Beershop and the Mitre Tavern.

    The history of The Gospel Oak Schools site in Circus Road is set out in the book William Ellis School, 1862-1962 (see scan below).
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...7648635168709/

    It confirms that the building in Circus Road/Rochford Street was the original 1862 Gospel Oak Schools. After being acquired by the Midland Railway in 1864, the Gospel Oak Schools were rebuilt (on a larger scale) in Allcroft Road. The original Circus Road building was re-used as another school (temporarily) and then by the laundry, and subsequently by a chromium plating company. The book also contains the widely available - it first appeared in the Illustrated London News - engraving of the Gospel Oak Schools, but confirms that it was as the school appeared on the Allcroft Road site (it wasn't renamed the William Ellis School until 1889), and a good photograph of the school in 1937 when it left Allcroft Road - see both below - which is similar to the engraving. The book describes the changes in the building which are apparent when you compare engraving and photograph.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...7648635168709/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...7648635168709/

    Given the story of the relocation, the similarity in the roof line between the William Ellis school in Allcroft Road and the original school
    building in Circus Road/Rochford Street is not a surprise.

    To complete the story, another book Educating the Respectable: A Study of Fleet Road Board School, Hampstead, 1879-1903 describes how the Fleet Road School, formed in 1877, occupied the Circus Road/Rochford Street building whilst its own building was erected in Fleet Road.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/129042...7648635168709/

    The book also describes how,before becoming the temporary home of the Fleet Road School, the former Gospel Oak Schools building on Circus Road/Rochford Street was a private school funded by two philanthropic ladies, and before that a school for the "waifs and strays of the caravan dwellers who frequented the borders of Hampstead Heath". In a lengthy quote the headmistress describes how the building was "entered by a large church-door" and had "church windows, comprised of small panes, and black with dirt". Although the postcard scan of the laundry is very small, it seems to fit this description!

  15. #95
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    Peter, you've certainly done some homework there! I notice that the in the picture of the school in Allcroft Road that the only section now remaining are two brickwork entrance piers!

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55...4w!2e0!6m1!1e1

    There are two buildings to the left of the housing office still standing too:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55...Ag!2e0!6m1!1e1

    They might be the two buildings shown in the etching.

  16. #96
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    If you look at my first picture in post #80 you can see the last remaining parts of the old school nearest to you before the new building going up now. This new building is on the site of the rent office so that's now gone. I'll walk around that way later on my way to work and see if the brickwork entrance piers are still there now that they cleared the site as I'd not noticed them. edit: I've just looked at another picture on my phone and that part of the wall is completely covered in foliage so it's probably hidden from view at the moment but still there.
    Last edited by scarymonster; 08-11-14 at 05:08 PM. Reason: update

  17. #97
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  18. #98
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    Merry Christmas to all and God willing we can continue our discussion over the coming year(s).


  19. #99
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    Yes please Scarymonster.

  20. #100
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    Last night I watched a DVD of a TV series called "Villains" from 1972. Episode 4 was called "Chas," originally broadcast on 12 August 1972, and featured Allcroft Road and the Dreghorn Castle. The north side of Allcroft Road was already in the proocess of being demolished, and Caroline Blakiston drove her Humber Sceptre south on Allcroft Road towards the Dreghorn Castle, along the line of where Wellesley Road is today. The pub itself also featured in the episode, although the interior shots may have been a set for all I know.

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