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  1. #1
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    I�m just beginning a book about Richard Ramirez, the notorious �Satanist� who killed thirteen people back in the mid-1980s. I was surprised, thinking he had been executed, along with such nasties as Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacey�but, no, he�s still around.



    I wonder what it is women find so appealing about this type of killer�they tack his pictures up on their bedroom walls, and some even marry convicted serial murderers and rapists. Perhaps it�s for the thrill, or the vicarious notoriety, without the danger. Can they even consummate their marriage?



    Fifteen years or so ago, after listening to International Prison Ministries, I sent away for a list of prisoners to correspond with some of them. The minister, along with the list, cautioned against it. Men have fallen victim, but women are particularly at risk, he advised, particularly if they give out their full names and addresses.



    I didn't listen, the first time. Nothing came of it , thankfully, and when the guy got out, he wanted to �visit.� I refused to accept his collect call. Oh, yes, I chose Florence Prison, which is only fifty miles or so from Phoenix.



    The second time I �smartened up,� I thought, used my middle name (Dean), and our office post office box number. I landed a guy on death row, who didn�t pen his letters�he taped them. His last tape, he 'reenacted' his wedding night for my edification.



    They usually try to convince their pen pals of their innocence�I even received a full transcript. I did send money�not much, but I expected to, for the prison commissary.



    The tapes he sent were ear-opening�what bedlam! Guys screaming obscentities, constantly. Of couse, he kept wanting my street address, which I didn�t give him. The last thing I was going to offer was to let it slip was that I worked in a law firm.



    A few years later, I saw that his sentence was overturned and he was out�guilty or not.



    Anyway, I am looking forward to reading The Night Stalker, the Life and Crimes of Richard Ramirez, although I�d be better off reading something about the life of Mother Theresa.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Country: UK batman's Avatar
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    name='Gary D.']

    Anyway, I am looking forward to reading The Night Stalker, the Life and Crimes of Richard Ramirez, although I’d be better off reading something about the life of Mother Theresa.


    The TV movie Manhunt:Search for the Night Stalker is very good. It concentrates mainly on the police investigation and features the late Richard Jordan as the officer in charge. The same policeman also caught the infamous Hillside Stranglers.





    LINK: Manhunt: Search for the Night Stalker

  3. #3
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    There was a doc recently on CH4 called 'My Boyfriend the Suffolk Strangler', about the girlfriend of Steve Wright. Quite tragic, she refused to accept he had committed the crimes he was sentenced of and in a way she just appeared to be plaything for a lifer.



    Peter Sutcliffe also apparently did/does get a lot of female 'fan' mail.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Country: England faginsgirl's Avatar
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    Hi Gary,



    With respect, you say you did correspond with prisoners but you are asking why people get involved with prisoners? Or am I reading it wrong, I don`t think I`m wide awake yet? Is it because you can`t believe the extremes that some people go to with their obsession with these people? I`m not having a go, just trying to work out what you are asking if you too have corresponded with prisoners (although of course I`m not suggesting that you wanted to marry one!) What motivated YOU? Or perhaps if you work for a law firm it was research on crime?



    I too can`t understand why...I`ll talk about women here, only because I have only heard of women offering to marry murders etc, bizzarely the Yorkshire ripper has had proposals of marriage . These women must also be insane in my opinion, the thought of what that man did should knock a woman sick more than anything never mind want to marry him





    xx

  5. #5
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    name='faginsgirl']Hi Gary,



    With respect, you say you did correspond with prisoners but you are asking why people get involved with prisoners? Or am I reading it wrong,



    (yes, you are)



    I don`t think I`m wide awake yet? Is it because you can`t believe the extremes that some people go to with their obsession with these people? I`m not having a go, just trying to work out what you are asking if you too have corresponded with prisoners (although of course I`m not suggesting that you wanted to marry one!)



    (apparently, I am going to have to ensure my words/thoughts are absolutely clear lest someone takes them wrong).




    What motivated YOU? Or perhaps if you work for a law firm it was research on crime?



    (I am interested in what makes people tick. So, why is there such a continuing interest in Jack the Ripper after more than a century? He killed fewer people and was less messy than many of our latter-day maniacs.)





    xx


    I should have realized someone would take this wrong. In some ways, I can emphathize with someone incarcerated, although I've never been locked up. It must be lonely, and my thinking at the time ('muddled,' as you might say), was to give them an interest in something outside the prison format. Doesn't it say something in the Bible about visiting prisoners? It's too bad that the locked-ups can't just take it for that, and not try to get someone to 'unlock' their cell. Was there ever a prisoner who wasn't 'innocent'?

  6. #6
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    name='Gary D.']Doesn't it say something in the Bible about visiting prisoners?


    Matt 25:31-40



    But then again, it also mentions something about not killing people somewhere



    Steve

  7. #7
    Senior Member Country: England faginsgirl's Avatar
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    Wooooooooooooooooooo Gary I was only asking to clarify! I was genuine!



    I wasn`t actually talking about JACK the ripper either if YOU had read MY post correctly. I said the YORKSHIRE RIPPER, who was in fact a serial killer in Yorkshire, England, around the 1970s/80s! JACK THE RIPPER attacked women in LONDON in 1888!



    I`m sorry if you took offence, none meant anyway. Reading my post again perhaps I could have written it more clearly myself, but I did say in the first place that I wasnt having a go at you.



    Best wishes,



    FG





    xx

  8. #8
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    I`m sorry if you took offence, none meant anyway. Reading my post again perhaps I could have written it more clearly myself, but I did say in the first place that I wasnt having a go at you.



    xx


    None meant, none taken.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Country: United States torinfan's Avatar
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    name='Gary D.']I�m just beginning a book about Richard Ramirez, the notorious �Satanist� who killed thirteen people back in the mid-1980s. I was surprised, thinking he had been executed, along with such nasties as Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacey�but, no, he�s still around.



    I wonder what it is women find so appealing about this type of killer�they tack his pictures up on their bedroom walls, and some even marry convicted serial murderers and rapists. Perhaps it�s for the thrill, or the vicarious notoriety, without the danger. Can they even consummate their marriage?



    Fifteen years or so ago, after listening to International Prison Ministries, I sent away for a list of prisoners to correspond with some of them. The minister, along with the list, cautioned against it. Men have fallen victim, but women are particularly at risk, he advised, particularly if they give out their full names and addresses.



    I didn't listen, the first time. Nothing came of it , thankfully, and when the guy got out, he wanted to �visit.� I refused to accept his collect call. Oh, yes, I chose Florence Prison, which is only fifty miles or so from Phoenix.



    The second time I �smartened up,� I thought, used my middle name (Dean), and our office post office box number. I landed a guy on death row, who didn�t pen his letters�he taped them. His last tape, he 'reenacted' his wedding night for my edification.



    They usually try to convince their pen pals of their innocence�I even received a full transcript. I did send money�not much, but I expected to, for the prison commissary.



    The tapes he sent were ear-opening�what bedlam! Guys screaming obscentities, constantly. Of couse, he kept wanting my street address, which I didn�t give him. The last thing I was going to offer was to let it slip was that I worked in a law firm.



    A few years later, I saw that his sentence was overturned and he was out�guilty or not.



    Anyway, I am looking forward to reading The Night Stalker, the Life and Crimes of Richard Ramirez, although I�d be better off reading something about the life of Mother Theresa.








    Some women love really bad boys.



    Other women love men who just portray bad boys on the screen.

  10. #10
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    I suspect that women who genuinely seek out 'bad boys' are suffering from low self esteem or have other issues. There is clearly something wrong and only until they recognise this will they start to rebuild their ability to have a healthy relationship.



    I've been out with a few so and so's in my time and it is dull, actually, you spend most of the time wondering what the hell is going on whilst they playing some daft game you're not aware of.



    Unfortunately I think some men have been lured in to the idea that the 'treat em mean, keep em keen' philosophy works well. The only relationship they're going to get with that is a superficial, up and down, nerve shredding experience that cannot be fulfilling because it lacks trust.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Country: United States torinfan's Avatar
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    name='MB']I suspect that women who genuinely seek out 'bad boys' are suffering from low self esteem or have other issues. There is clearly something wrong and only until they recognise this will they start to rebuild their ability to have a healthy relationship.



    I've been out with a few so and so's in my time and it is dull, actually, you spend most of the time wondering what the hell is going on whilst they playing some daft game you're not aware of.



    Unfortunately I think some men have been lured in to the idea that the 'treat em mean, keep em keen' philosophy works well. The only relationship they're going to get with that is a superficial, up and down, nerve shredding experience that cannot be fulfilling because it lacks trust.




    From my experience, women who do that, it does have to do with esteem, they "need" to have a man who is really far beneath them. OTOH a few men are like that too - they "need" a woman far beneath them. But women who seek out the bad boys are just perpetuating the cycle an they never really get out of abusive relationships, which is sad.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Country: UK DB7's Avatar
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    I think somebody on death row has slightly surpassed the 'bad boy' tag.

  13. #13
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    There's a few things that go on with these people.



    1. Rescue Fantasy - where they believe they can make a bad person reform or heal a sick mind . (Men get this one too but usually for the Marilyn Monroe lost-little-womanchild types.)



    2. Those seeking fame/notoriety by association - easy to spot: they're in the papers. Frequently see themselves as 'dull' and crave attention and 'spice' in their lives. These people can just as easily become 'groupies' for actors and musicians. But prisoners are an easier target.



    3. People with abandonment issues - there's no more sure bet than a lonely man trapped in a prison with only other men around them (although this rather assumes the person didn't see the tv series Oz, I suspect).



    4. People desperate for a role and a sense of belonging- you'd find this type writing to people like Charles Manson. The reason Linda Kasabian was originally drawn into the 'family' was she felt 'disposable' and Charlie offered her a sense of belonging and a role to play in a social group.





    There's probably more, but I need a cup of tea right now.....

  14. #14
    Senior Member Country: UK homeguard's Avatar
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    name='Wicked Lady']There's a few things that go on with these people.



    1. Rescue Fantasy - where they believe they can make a bad person reform or heal a sick mind . (Men get this one too but usually for the Marilyn Monroe lost-little-womanchild types.)



    2. Those seeking fame/notoriety by association - easy to spot: they're in the papers. Frequently see themselves as 'dull' and crave attention and 'spice' in their lives. These people can just as easily become 'groupies' for actors and musicians. But prisoners are an easier target.



    3. People with abandonment issues - there's no more sure bet than a lonely man trapped in a prison with only other men around them (although this rather assumes the person didn't see the tv series Oz, I suspect).



    4. People desperate for a role and a sense of belonging- you'd find this type writing to people like Charles Manson. The reason Linda Kasabian was originally drawn into the 'family' was she felt 'disposable' and Charlie offered her a sense of belonging and a role to play in a social group.





    There's probably more, but I need a cup of tea right now.....


    That's impressive! Particularly the first, which was so unbelievable to a good friend of mine who couldn't convince three Belgian Nunns to abandon a group of children in the Congo and save themselves. They were convinced they could handle the approaching Simbas. After 40+ years he still cries at the thought of how he left them.

    Now I need a cup of tea. Strange how horror is easier to handle when you're young, but comes back to bite you much later.



    HG

  15. #15
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    Don't wish to sound belligerent DB7, but why would Death Row put one beyond the "bad boy" tag, to the contrary I would have thought it might be the ultimate endorsement. From a certain POV who is badder than a "Death Row" badman/woman (but usually a man) ?

  16. #16
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    name='Wicked Lady']There's a few things that go on with these people.



    1. Rescue Fantasy - where they believe they can make a bad person reform or heal a sick mind . (Men get this one too but usually for the Marilyn Monroe lost-little-womanchild types.)



    2. Those seeking fame/notoriety by association - easy to spot: they're in the papers. Frequently see themselves as 'dull' and crave attention and 'spice' in their lives. These people can just as easily become 'groupies' for actors and musicians. But prisoners are an easier target.



    3. People with abandonment issues - there's no more sure bet than a lonely man trapped in a prison with only other men around them (although this rather assumes the person didn't see the tv series Oz, I suspect).



    4. People desperate for a role and a sense of belonging- you'd find this type writing to people like Charles Manson. The reason Linda Kasabian was originally drawn into the 'family' was she felt 'disposable' and Charlie offered her a sense of belonging and a role to play in a social group.



    * * *



    .....


    Dear Wicked Lady -- Very insightful and I concur. There's an element of 'safe' danger here and women/men probably want the reflected attention when they 'marry' someone who's either locked up for life or is going to be executed.



    I am still reading about Richard Ramirez--who should have gone to meet his master, Old Nick, decades ago--why is this creep still hanging around?



    I told my sister, who lived in the Los Angeles for years, why did people--especially middle-aged to elderly women--leave their doors and windows unlocked amidst all the publicity of this maniac running around disembowling women?



    Me--Why, it can't happen to me!

  17. #17
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    I think Wicked lady is right, there are probably a whole host of complex reasons why people go down this road. But I think it is related to this �bad-boy� syndrome � the extreme end � of course, as Bill Bentley pointed out.



    But I think it is important to distinguish it as being a �problem�. I�ve heard some men cite it as the reason their relationships don�t work � �I�m too nice� and even say �I�ll have to start messing them around�. But, I remember reading an article once that pointed out �these men are usually not that �nice� at all � they�re just dull�.



    I think that is the key � I think some men and women are confusing the up and down emotions to be had from an abusive relationship � with the �frisson� involved in some parts of a genuine relationship � there are ups and downs there too � but to seek out someone who is definitely going to give you those lows is a form of self abuse. And it is an easy one to fall in to..the rollercoaster ride can �heighten� things a bit..emotion, sexual tension..but in a similar way to other self abuse � it is an unhealthy �high� followed by a dreadful low and I think people can become �addicted� to it � and then, quite possibly, look to �heighten� the experience.



    But it is a vicious cycle to stop if there is this popular perception of �bad-boys� (and women) being the key to some rip roaring relationship and men and women are abusing each other in order to achieve some kind of �high�. Plenty of people manage to have relationships without that kind of abuse and are usually happier for it.



    But I don�t think the �bad-boy� syndrome is actually as common as the bad-boys and girls like to think. I have known far more people (and I�m sure most of the people here too) who have suffered at the hands of someone who just messed them around and felt they could get away with it because they had vague notions of the above (thinking it makes them racier etc.) But, in fact, most people are usually reluctant to get back involved with a situation like that � and become very hurt and wary - I don�t think it is common to actively seek it out � a genuine �problem� - I think, in most cases, people often just �hope for the best�.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Country: England faginsgirl's Avatar
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    name='billy bentley']Don't wish to sound belligerent DB7, but why would Death Row put one beyond the "bad boy" tag, to the contrary I would have thought it might be the ultimate endorsement. From a certain POV who is badder than a "Death Row" badman/woman (but usually a man) ?


    Well I agree with DB7, my perception of a bad boy is just that, a BOY or very young man who could be a heartbreaker, womaniser or even a petty thief, things that are seen as treating people badly through choice in my opinion.When you get to the serial killer stage surely there are more psycological issues and there seems little hope for them to change? Of course being associated with a bad boy isn`t what anyone would want for thier daughter or for thier son to be associated with, but being a BOY he has time to mature. Not quite the same as an axe wielding serial killer whom NOBODY wants to know and God help you if you happen to meet them.! The words bad boy just sound a bit too tame for that.



    I suppose its all about how you word things and how you `percieve` a bad boy and bad man`, but as a child me and my friends were scared of the concept of the bad man, the bad boy didn`t install the same fear in me, not till I was a teenage girl and encountered them anyway!!!



    xx

  19. #19
    Administrator Country: Wales Steve Crook's Avatar
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    And if you marry someone who's locked up in prison - at least you know where he is every night



    Steve

  20. #20
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    name='faginsgirl']Well I agree with DB7, my perception of a bad boy is just that, a BOY or very young man who could be a heartbreaker, womaniser or even a petty thief, things that are seen as treating people badly through choice in my opinion.When you get to the serial killer stage surely there are more psycological issues and there seems little hope for them to change? Of course being associated with a bad boy isn`t what anyone would want for thier daughter or for thier son to be associated with, but being a BOY he has time to mature. Not quite the same as an axe wielding serial killer whom NOBODY wants to know and God help you if you happen to meet them.! The words bad boy just sound a bit too tame for that.



    I suppose its all about how you word things and how you `percieve` a bad boy and bad man`, but as a child me and my friends were scared of the concept of the bad man, the bad boy didn`t install the same fear in me, not till I was a teenage girl and encountered them anyway!!!



    xx


    I think the term 'badboy' has come in to common usage to describe a man attractive to some women because of their behaviour. Coronation street has shown some corkers.



    I didn't think the point was, initially, just about 'serial killers' was it? I think it was about men who are in prison - a wide range indeed and some of them may well be innocent...



    Some of the women writing to them may not have psychological problems, I suppose, just wanting to do a good deed - like Gary D.



    There are degrees of everything, I suppose...



    Not my cup of tea - like Gary D I would anticipate further trouble. But the level of suicide in very young men in prison is a worrying cause.

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